I would like to assist in bringing back Youth State Duals. I know this was done in the past. What were some of the issues? Who would attend? Anyone have suggestions for weight classes and age divisions? Anyone interested in working on this with me?

I have a facility we have used for our off-season training and Summer Camp. They told me they would host. All they need is a date. It can hold up to 8 mats if needed. They have been very accommodating and more importantly, not a school we have to fight for gym time w/ bball, volleyball, etc. I was originally thinking the weekend after State, but open to any suggestions. Here is a link if you'd like to check it out:

http://sportsofallsortsky.com/

I know this is an open forum, but please only provide constructive feedback. Thanks!

Matt Lee

Raider Youth Wrestling

Great idea. This is a perfect venue to crown a team champion.

Cmon Ranger, I was hoping for a little more. Not just a pat on the back and a subtle potshot. Suggestions on dates? Weight Classes? Would CC attend? Can you or anyone from your club help out w/ the organizing?

Help me understand something please. We can come up with weight classes for a state duals tournament in the youth, but we can't have weight classes for the youth state tournament?

Date: within 1-3 weeks of the state tournament. I would say the next weekend, but I also would like to see participation from all around the state and making a huge trip on back to back weekends may be tough

CC: I'm sure we would participate and would likely help out as much as possible, I will still have one participating for another year or so, so I will be around to help a little myself.

Weights: I have to leave this one up to you as you have all of the data from the last few years. I don't like the idea of just randomly using USA weights, but rather think we should see what the KY kids have been weighing. The one thing I haven't thought enough about is should there be divisions or just one mega team. So do we go with Div 1-4 (5/6, 7/8, 9/10, 11/12) and 4 teams per club or Div 1-2 (5/6/7/8, 9/10/11/12) and 2 teams per club, or just one team with best each team has to offer. Either way, just look at the kids who have been participating and come up with the weights. I'm guessing you would start around 40 pounds and move up in 3-4 pound increments with 25 or so weights (depending on the number of divisions).

There you go. A few ideas and feedback. And I don't think I included any potshots.

We can take a look at other formats being used around the country. I've seen where dual formats will use an (A) and ( participant in the same weight as will as different age divisions. I'm open to anything at this point. 25 weight classes was the # that seemed right too. I'll take a look at the past 2 years and throw something out there. We have time, but I'd like to have everything completed before the season begins.

Thanks for your help and feedback.

Help me understand something please. We can come up with weight classes for a state duals tournament in the youth, but we can't have weight classes for the youth state tournament?

This comes from Stan Martin, who helped write the Youth Bylaws:

- Weight classes, there are true weight classes at all youth events. They are grouped from the lowest weight to the highest, 8 kids at a time unless there is a greater than 10% difference from the lowest weight. We tried having set weight classes in the 1st couple state tourneys, USA Wrestling weights. Over 50% of the brackets had less than 4 kids making the tournament have over 120 brackets. The 10% rule dropped the brackets to 87 with 79 full brackets. So, do you want to be the state champ of a 4 man or 8 man bracket? Why do you care if it is a published bracket or a floating one? Are we here to wrestle or win a PRE-DETERMINED weight class

This topic has been discussed at great lengths. In addition to the reasons Stan mentioned, I am not a fan of set weight classes for one key reason: it promotes weight cutting. I have watched 8 year old kids at "set weight" tournaments cutting weight. There is no way to stop it, unless we adopt some type of hydration testing like they do at the High School level, which will never happen. The 10% rule not only works out better logistically, but also is a safer alternative. There isn't an incentive for kids to lose weight because you cannot predict the weight classes.

As far as the Dual Tournament, not sure how to do it w/out set weight classes. I'm open to any suggestions you might have Plantman.

I would support doing a “Super Team” type set up. Not sure what the smallest of the 5 year olds are weighing these days, but let’s say 40lbs, then work up in 5lb increments up to the youth Hwy Weight class. Each team can do a wrestle off/or select their top wrestler for each class. I would use the top 16 teams based on team size at current Regional/State. I don’t think it makes a bunch of sense to have any team with 10-15 kids wrestle in the youth state duels. Too many weight classes would have to be forfeited. I doubt any small team would be able to compete if they had to give up multiple weight classes.

If one of the top 16 teams chooses not to compete, move to the 17^th team up and so on. Split the 16 teams in pools of 4 and seed based on current roster for Regional/State roster numbers. Have all weigh-ins the day of the tourney, on site. This way, the youth kids get a chance to go through morning weigh-ins. I think that by doing the weigh–ins the morning of it will show the wrestlers what they will be dealing with when they make the next move up to MS. If each team turns in the “expected” team roster 2-3 days prior to the event. It will make it easier for the tourney administration to handle weigh-ins. Plus it will encourage coaches to plug in kids to proper spots and help to make sure none of their kids are “cutting weight” for the event.

Looks like some really great ideas have been presented so far. I think that this would be an awesome event for the wrestlers and coaches. True team wrestling at its finest.

Thunder the only thing I would change is give a 1# allowance. That way there are not any surprises the day of weigh-ins and all kids have a chance to wrestle. Remember if this tournament happens they are only youth kids.

Yeah, but it is a dual event, so being over weight will not prevent a kid from competing, the coach would just have to adjust the lineup a bit or swap kids in and out.

I would support doing a “Super Team” type set up. Not sure what the smallest of the 5 year olds are weighing these days, but let’s say 40lbs, then work up in 5lb increments up to the youth Hwy Weight class. Each team can do a wrestle off/or select their top wrestler for each class. I would use the top 16 teams based on team size at current Regional/State. I don’t think it makes a bunch of sense to have any team with 10-15 kids wrestle in the youth state duels. Too many weight classes would have to be forfeited. I doubt any small team would be able to compete if they had to give up multiple weight classes.

If one of the top 16 teams chooses not to compete, move to the 17^th team up and so on. Split the 16 teams in pools of 4 and seed based on current roster for Regional/State roster numbers. Have all weigh-ins the day of the tourney, on site. This way, the youth kids get a chance to go through morning weigh-ins. I think that by doing the weigh–ins the morning of it will show the wrestlers what they will be dealing with when they make the next move up to MS. If each team turns in the “expected” team roster 2-3 days prior to the event. It will make it easier for the tourney administration to handle weigh-ins. Plus it will encourage coaches to plug in kids to proper spots and help to make sure none of their kids are “cutting weight” for the event.

Looks like some really great ideas have been presented so far. I think that this would be an awesome event for the wrestlers and coaches. True team wrestling at its finest.

Thanks for the suggestions. 5 lb increments might be a bit much at the lower weights. I'll look at the previous State Tournaments and other Youth tournaments as a guide for the weight classes.

Just looking at OH youth weights, here is a shot:

40, 43, 46, 49, 52, 56, 60, 64, 68, 72, 76, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 105, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 180, 200

But again, Matt can look at the data and adjust as needed. I know it seems like there are 8000 brackets for kids around 68 pounds each year. Not sure if that means we should add a few weights in there (66 and 70) or just let it go as the natural progression of weight suggests.

Just looking at OH youth weights, here is a shot:

40, 43, 46, 49, 52, 56, 60, 64, 68, 72, 76, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 105, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 180, 200

But again, Matt can look at the data and adjust as needed. I know it seems like there are 8000 brackets for kids around 68 pounds each year. Not sure if that means we should add a few weights in there (66 and 70) or just let it go as the natural progression of weight suggests.

This looks like a good start. Question: how do we (or should we) divide up the ages?

Just looking at OH youth weights, here is a shot:

40, 43, 46, 49, 52, 56, 60, 64, 68, 72, 76, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 105, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 180, 200

But again, Matt can look at the data and adjust as needed. I know it seems like there are 8000 brackets for kids around 68 pounds each year. Not sure if that means we should add a few weights in there (66 and 70) or just let it go as the natural progression of weight suggests.

Ranger, I like the looks of the weights above. With the smaller kids, we would have to have some of the 5-6 year olds competing. At a Youth state level, it will be great to see a mixture of 5-6 year olds but also all the other age ranges in there as well. It will take a true team effort to win the tourney.

This looks like a good start. Question: how do we (or should we) divide up the ages?

I don't think you should divide the ages at all. Simply put, the best wrestler reps the club at their weight class.

I like having one big team; all ages. We put together a 13 and under team last month for a dual in OH and it was a blast. By dividing it up into too many age groups will make it harder to field full teams and likely lead to less participation. My vote is 1 team all youth ages.

I like having one big team; all ages. We put together a 13 and under team last month for a dual in OH and it was a blast. By dividing it up into too many age groups will make it harder to field full teams and likely lead to less participation. My vote is 1 team all youth ages.

OK, that's how we'll do it.

Will this be a true youth tournament or will we allow Middle School kids. I like the idea of one big team just think we should stop it at the 5th grade. Middle school kids have a tournament already. I don't like the idea of a 12 year old going against a 8 year old.

What about team seeding? I liked the idea of using the the State Tournament as a way to seed, but as of today, we no longer have team scores. Any suggestions?

Seed by team size. It doesn't meant they have the best team but the have the most to pull from. The chances are the bigger teams will have solid kids.

Will this be a true youth tournament or will we allow Middle School kids. I like the idea of one big team just think we should stop it at the 5th grade. Middle school kids have a tournament already. I don't like the idea of a 12 year old going against a 8 year old.

I'm not a big fan of a 12 year old against an 8 year old either, but not sure how to avoid that w/out creating age divisions. One idea is to create divisions only in the common overlapping weight classes, like an A and a B based on age. I've seen this done in other dual formats. I'll be sure to investigate.

I would want to see each program's best kids, regardless if they wrestle Middle School or not. Not sure why we'd want to exclude the top youth wrestlers for an event like this just because they're good. As long as they are of age/weight, they should be elgible.

I think any kid eligible for youth state should be eligible for this event. Grade (elementary vs middle school) doesn't always correlate with age.

Plus, if this is a true team tourney the coaches will have to put the best kids up at each class. In one match the 8 year old may have to battle a 12 year old, but against the next team he may have a 6 year old. Since we still run an individual state tourney, each wrestler will have the chance to battle it out to be the state champion. Since the format of the duels would be based on team scores, it is up to each club to put together the most solid team from top to bottom based on the entire roster. I think that will make it special to have a 5-6 year olds be important to his team as a 12 year old stud MS wrestler. Every point will count!!!

Exactly. That was the fun part of the team we put together. To see MS state champs and placers cheering on 8 or 9 year old kids to help the team and giving them a pat on the back after a big win or lifting them up after a tough loss.

I'm all for putting your best team on the mat I would just hate to see a kid get hurt. My son would be one of the 8 or 9 year olds wrestling against older kids. I'm not to worried about him just worried about the kids that are not as aggressive. This sounds like an awesome idea lets just make sure it works and grows!

Ranger correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this tried at the youth level a few years ago? Does anyone remember any issues? If there were, now would be a good time to get them out here to be discussed. If not, great! This looks like a fun time as well as a chance for the best in the state to shine!

Ranger correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this tried at the youth level a few years ago? Does anyone remember any issues? If there were, now would be a good time to get them out here to be discussed. If not, great! This looks like a fun time as well as a chance for the best in the state to shine!

One of the initial concerns I have is participation. If we cannot get a strong enough commitment from the clubs around the state, we're dead in the water.

I would expect NKY and Louisville/Oldham to show good participation. So you would get a solid 4-6 teams. I think that is a good start. If we give it a try and get some of the best 5 or 6 teams in the state there and all of the kids get 5 matches in then I think it will be a win. And eventually more will buy in. I'm just not sure you will see Union bring a group up. Hopefully Johnson County would be on board.

I don't recall the issues if/when this was tried in the past.

The issues were that no one wanted to participate because when you didn't have a kid in a weight/age group you lost 6 points for forfeit (which is standard in HS & MS Duals.) If you didn't have 70 kids to fill all the spots, you had no chance as soon as you walked in the door. So whats the point.

I know the one year our youth group participated we didnt have 9 or so of the weights, so we were down 54 points before we ever started.

That's why I say it needs to be limited to 20-25 weight classes.

Man I hope this gets done. If we can put this together, it would be a ton of fun for the kids. Win, lose or draw, I expect the kids will have way more fun at a dual tournament than the individual tournaments.

The issues were that no one wanted to participate because when you didn't have a kid in a weight/age group you lost 6 points for forfeit (which is standard in HS & MS Duals.) If you didn't have 70 kids to fill all the spots, you had no chance as soon as you walked in the door. So whats the point.

I know the one year our youth group participated we didnt have 9 or so of the weights, so we were down 54 points before we ever started.

I like to call this a "man in the mirror problem". You suggest we can't keep team scores at state because some teams have too many kids. Now you are suggesting teams don't want to attend a dual tournament because they don't have enough kids. Here is my solution to this: GET MORE KIDS! That is YOUR responsibility as a coach. That is where YOU as a coach compete with other teams. Either get more kids or accept that you are at a disadvantage. This is not new to the sport of wrestling. Teams at every level struggle filling line ups. Getting and keeping kids is a talent that some coaches have and some don't.

GET MORE KIDS! That is YOUR responsibility as a coach.

You have criticized others for acting like they have all the answers. If your job forced you to move to a small county, but that is where the income that fed your family was - would you just pay to move more people in - since that is your answer to everything.

If it is a small area, which there are some of those throughout the state, maybe those teams should just shutdown and not have these kids wrestling - since you say their coaches are failing. Before you hit send, read it out loud so you here how stupid that sounds.

Be fortunate that you are in a highly populated area - but don't think that the numbers represent your abilities as a coach.

JW, not speaking for Raidercoach, (he does a good job doing that on his own) but Union, KY is not a highly populated area. I believe we have less than 6,000 people. We do pull some from Florence, KY, but the majority of our kids are not from there.

You should follow the ISWA weight classes and age groups, works well. www.iswa.com Just a suggestion.

If this event can get off the ground, would it be an issue for a couple of smaller clubs to come together to form a team for this? I know the idea is for it to be a youth club duel, but if we could get a few small clubs together to form a team it may help a bit with the numbers. We have a small club, but if it could help to get the kids more matches, I wouldn’t have an issue. I would hate to see it get set up and not have any teams interested or worse than that, several forfeits. Do kids join wrestling to get matches or take forfeits?

Realistically, you could have an entire region join up to form a super team. I’m just trying to think outside the box.

I think it could be a very cool event, but it may not be much fun if you only have 2-3 teams on board. Plus the amount of work it will take to put together.

BTW…..I am not complaining about my club size. With the limited number of coaches we have, we do all we can for our kids.

JW, not speaking for Raidercoach, (he does a good job doing that on his own) but Union, KY is not a highly populated area. I believe we have less than 6,000 people. We do pull some from Florence, KY, but the majority of our kids are not from there.

Not speaking for JW, but that's 6000 people for an area thats 3 square miles. I'm sure he was talking about county wide areas with the same type population spread over hundreds of miles. 6000 people for 3 square is extremely densely populated, and Boone county is well over a 100,000.

You have criticized others for acting like they have all the answers. If your job forced you to move to a small county, but that is where the income that fed your family was - would you just pay to move more people in - since that is your answer to everything.

If it is a small area, which there are some of those throughout the state, maybe those teams should just shutdown and not have these kids wrestling - since you say their coaches are failing. Before you hit send, read it out loud so you here how stupid that sounds.

Be fortunate that you are in a highly populated area - but don't think that the numbers represent your abilities as a coach.

My response was to a coach from Kenton County, which is more populated than Boone County which is where we are from. Based on the 2010 census, Kenton County has 40,000 MORE people than Boone County. Boone County is the 4th largest county in KY. It is about a fifth of the size of Jefferson County, half the size of Fayette County and 40,000 less than Kenton County. Boone is only about 4,000 and 7,000 people larger than Harden and Warren Counties respectively.

Yet, Boone County has the 2 largest youth programs in the state and 2 other very big ones that are growing like wild fire. I never said he was failing, I suggested to get more kids because I know it can be done because I've seen it done in less populated areas.

Not speaking for JW, but that's 6000 people for an area thats 3 square miles. I'm sure he was talking about county wide areas with the same type population spread over hundreds of miles. 6000 people for 3 square is extremely densely populated, and Boone county is well over a 100,000.

Actually Union's population is smaller than 6000. The latest census has us at 3,710. I'm not trying to downplay the advantages of having high population to get programs going. It is an obvious advantage. But, all we are talking about in most instances is getting 15-20 more kids. That can be done in most areas.

Not speaking for JW, but that's 6000 people for an area thats 3 square miles. I'm sure he was talking about county wide areas with the same type population spread over hundreds of miles. 6000 people for 3 square is extremely densely populated, and Boone county is well over a 100,000.

Any suggestions for State Duals, Mike?

You should follow the ISWA weight classes and age groups, works well. www.iswa.com Just a suggestion.

Thanks for the suggestion. Any idea where I can find the format? I've looked around and couldn't find it.

If this event can get off the ground, would it be an issue for a couple of smaller clubs to come together to form a team for this? I know the idea is for it to be a youth club duel, but if we could get a few small clubs together to form a team it may help a bit with the numbers. We have a small club, but if it could help to get the kids more matches, I wouldn’t have an issue. I would hate to see it get set up and not have any teams interested or worse than that, several forfeits. Do kids join wrestling to get matches or take forfeits?

Realistically, you could have an entire region join up to form a super team. I’m just trying to think outside the box.

I think it could be a very cool event, but it may not be much fun if you only have 2-3 teams on board. Plus the amount of work it will take to put together.

BTW…..I am not complaining about my club size. With the limited number of coaches we have, we do all we can for our kids.

i think those are awesome ideas

Actually Union's population is smaller than 6000. The latest census has us at 3,710. I'm not trying to downplay the advantages of having high population to get programs going. It is an obvious advantage. But, all we are talking about in most instances is getting 15-20 more kids. That can be done in most areas.

15-20 kids? I know football teams in this area (Louisville) that can't just run out and get that many kids but you make it sound as if that sounds so easy for a wrestling team which we all know gets way less support. If it were so easy the talk of growing the sport would'nt even be an issue. Not here to argue it, just pointing out a fact. There are 120 counties in KY, Boone being the fourth largest as you pointed out, plus just the sheer popularity of the sport in that region versus the lack of support in the rest of the state does not make it as easy as you suggest. I am the type to see a young kid, ask the parents if they are involved in any sports, suggest restling and give them the website, and feel lucky if I see one out of fifty actually show up within a year.

Any suggestions for State Duals, Mike?

Here's one. Continue this debate in a positive direction, stop the the name calling, arguementative attitudes, and finger pointing. Besides that, as far as youth level goes doesnt matter to me if they crown a team champ or not. At that age, the kids mostly care about individual achievements. Just my opinion.

15-20 kids? I know football teams in this area (Louisville) that can't just run out and get that many kids but you make it sound as if that sounds so easy for a wrestling team which we all know gets way less support. If it were so easy the talk of growing the sport would'nt even be an issue. Not here to argue it, just pointing out a fact. There are 120 counties in KY, Boone being the fourth largest as you pointed out, plus just the sheer popularity of the sport in that region versus the lack of support in the rest of the state does not make it as easy as you suggest. I am the type to see a young kid, ask the parents if they are involved in any sports, suggest restling and give them the website, and feel lucky if I see one out of fifty actually show up within a year.

Mike, I'm not saying it is easy at all. In fact, I've seen first hand how hard it is to build and grow a program. I have the utmost respect for everyone that is involved with this sport, regardless the size of their program (with the exception of Ranger right now). I just think we should aspire to be bigger and better. I think we have spent a lot of time tallking lately about accommodating smaller programs versus trying to encourage their growth. If we keep catering everything to the smaller programs, then where will their motivation be to grow?

I'd like to see a united effort to fund raise for smaller programs. I love the idea of taking the profits from this tournament and some how donate it towards buying a mat or paying for and organizing an awesome free camp for the small teams.

Here's one. Continue this debate in a positive direction, stop the the name calling, arguementative attitudes, and finger pointing. Besides that, as far as youth level goes doesnt matter to me if they crown a team champ or not. At that age, the kids mostly care about individual achievements. Just my opinion.

Not quite sure when I did that, but very well. Let's move on.

Not quite sure when I did that, but very well. Let's move on.

Sorry, general statement. Not directed at any one individual. I respect the efforts you guys are trying to make. Bottom line, can't please them all.

I'd like to see a united effort to fund raise for smaller programs. I love the idea of taking the profits from this tournament and some how donate it towards buying a mat or paying for and organizing an awesome free camp for the small teams.

I see that as as one of the best ideas I've heard yet. Raise money to help start and grow new programs. I don't think it has to be just for smaller programs though. Help...with :"criteria" and not just hand a mat (used or new) to anyone who says they want to start a team. That would be rediculous. Make the person(s) who want to start a team have some skin in the game and have to prove it.

How about use the profits to put on a camp and pay for all of the coaches and wrestlers who want to attend from some of the "smaller" schools? We could put it on Lexington or maybe even do two, one for the east/west or north/south. It could be a cool recruiting tool for the smaller programs. "Come learn how to wrestle for free". We would tailor the camp around early basics and make it really fun so the kids want to come back. I'm sure we could round up some stud clinicians to do it at a discount if they knew what we were doing. Just a thought.

Any suggestions for State Duals, Mike?

I would think it would be cool to have this the week after youth state. Because we would only have one kid per weight class/per team after state we could then call in the wrestlers that would be involved in the duels only. I'm concerned that if we tried to plan it during the season, the kids not involved would lose out on practice time if the focus is getting the duel team ready. Plus if you have a couple of clubs joining forces, it would give them a little prep time after the regular season comes to a close.

I think that it is very cool for the bigger clubs to think about us small clubs as far as profit sharing is concerned. But I agree that if your willing to help the smaller programs that they need to be as helpful as possible by providing some table workers, etc. Looks like this is heading in the right direction. It sure will be a fun event to watch.

Who/What would be the definers of small clubs that can join together and large clubs that must be stand alone?

Who/What would be the definers of small clubs that can join together and large clubs that must be stand alone?

I will say that no one from the Raiders wants to be a part of that conversation!

I will say that no one from the Raiders wants to be a part of that conversation!

The more I think about this, the more I just don't think putting teams together would work. I like the idea of finding a way to create an environment where everyone wants to participate (maybe less weight classes). But, if you allow clubs to pick and choose their best kids to make an all star team, then we really aren't proving who has the best dual team in the state, which I thought was the point.

An idea that my work -

Parkersburg WV has a 13 and Under duals tournament every year - 2 seperate pools going on, the club / team division and the All-Star Division. Kind of how MS states does the club and school, you could do the Team and All-Star. All-Star allowing multiple teams to come together to form a team (growing and allowing more to compete) and the Team division - who is the best team straight up.

Some kids will probably be torn on which way to go, but would allow more to compete (which is what you want), keeps the integrity of the team on one side, and would probably make for some good competition.

Maybe for smaller teams that have trouble filling slots, could they have a substitute cap? Like say, each team is allowed to bring in 3 or whatever kids from another area as long as they were Ky kids? Many large tourneys do this, and it really helps the smaller programs to compete with large ones (less forfeits).