The recent discussion about using set weight classes for our Youth State Tournament got me thinking. What would our 2012 State Tournament look like if we used Ohio's Tournament of Champions weight classes for our State Tournament? I'm glad I saved the master spreadsheet from this year's tournament!

65 total weight classes (http://www.ohiotofc....tion/AgeWeights)

20 brackets would have 16+ kids

20 brackets would have less than 8

Major problem bracket sizes (31, 36, 34, 35, 33, 2, 3, 4, 5, 4, 3, 2, 2, 6, 5, 3, 3, 3, 5) That's right, we'd have 14 brackets of 6 or less and 5 with 30+!

Can someone please explain to me how this is a better tournament than what we currently have? How in the world would we logistically pull this off?

Also, I couldn't help notice the dozens of kids within 2 lbs of dropping to the lower class. There would be no doubt in my mind that we'd open the flood gates for our 1000+ youth wrestlers to at least consider dropping weight.

Even using the the current format, there are still some brackets with less than 6 kids. How many brackets had less than 6 kids at last years state tournament?

Great start Matt. Exactly what we need to see. And maybe the USA age/weights. Along with the number from our state the last couple of years. But I still think we (NO I DON'T MEAN ME) have the right to make up our own. Just like we do in middle school. If our state in it's relatively young and growing state has a very different distribution of kids we should create age/weights that reflect the kids we have. I believe the middle school has created a committee in the past to propose weights to be used.

Even using the the current format, there are still some brackets with less than 6 kids. How many brackets had less than 6 kids at last years state tournament?

We had 14 brackets that had 6 or less, but only one 2 man. Mostly 5 man brackets. The bigger concern to me is the larger classes. How do we deal with those?

Great start Matt. Exactly what we need to see. And maybe the USA age/weights. Along with the number from our state the last couple of years. But I still think we (NO I DON'T MEAN ME) have the right to make up our own. Just like we do in middle school. If our state in it's relatively young and growing state has a very different distribution of kids we should create age/weights that reflect the kids we have. I believe the middle school has created a committee in the past to propose weights to be used.

Ranger, the TOC uses more weight classes than most state tournaments; therefore, if we use other formats that have been suggested, we're going to run into the same problem if not worse.

If we did use this format, we'd almost certainly have to find a way to split the larger brackets into half. Not sure what to do with all those small brackets. No matter what format we'd use, some type of "tweeking" would have to be done every year to adjust.

Hey Mlee being you have the data, what about comparing it to the Indiana SWA weight classes they use. (there is a little difference between them and TOC) Just curious to see the data comparison, when you have time, thanks.

Most likely if you had set weight classes at the state tournament, the next step would be regional qualifiers to avoid having an extravagant number of kids in a single bracket at state.

That is great analysis on this. I think that it is very interesting that there would have been the same number of small sized brackets using both systems. Looking at the number of large brackets, does the spreadsheet have ages / birthdates - would just be interested to see what an age split on the big brackets would cause.

As far as the running of the tournament, if you are using a software program such as trackwrestling - it is not a nightmare with different size brackets. It will auto number the bouts to make it work out. The biggest time saver would have to be to alter the faceoff plan (I know this would be another heated debate on the forum).

Any chance of sharing the spreadsheet. I will play with it against different ages / bracket comparisons - just to see if there is a good solution. I fully agree with you that there will always have to be a weight class combined or the 5 year old that is just very big for his age, but there are some other things to consider:

That is great analysis on this. I think that it is very interesting that there would have been the same number of small sized brackets using both systems. Looking at the number of large brackets, does the spreadsheet have ages / birthdates - would just be interested to see what an age split on the big brackets would cause.

As far as the running of the tournament, if you are using a software program such as trackwrestling - it is not a nightmare with different size brackets. It will auto number the bouts to make it work out. The biggest time saver would have to be to alter the faceoff plan (I know this would be another heated debate on the forum).

Any chance of sharing the spreadsheet. I will play with it against different ages / bracket comparisons - just to see if there is a good solution. I fully agree with you that there will always have to be a weight class combined or the 5 year old that is just very big for his age, but there are some other things to consider:

I did sort by age grouping, just like in TOC. Not too difficult to do. I'll be sure to look at other state's (IN) and USA when I get some time.

JW, there are as many "less than 8 brackets" but not as many 2,3,and 4 man. The 10% format allows to consolidate; therefore, we have more 5,6, and 7 man brackets vs 2,3,and 4. Inevitably, there will be fringe weights where there's really nothing you can do. The bigger issue for me is running a tournament w/ such a variance in bracket size. Also, did we solve the issue of making it more competitive? Certainly for some, but not so much for others.

One option is to use the 10% rule w/ 16 man brackets. I'll play around with that as well to see how it looks.

Some type of qualifying tournament is inevitable. I don't believe we are there yet. The Association needs to discuss this at the next meeting. "Regionals" doesn't seem logical considering some clubs are larger than the smaller Regions. I like the idea of designating 4 "quailifying tournaments" where kids need to place in the top 3 or 4 in order to be eligible to compete at state. TOC's uses this format.

I'll gladly send out the master spreadsheet when I get back into my office.

Some type of qualifying tournament is inevitable. I don't believe we are there yet. The Association needs to discuss this at the next meeting. "Regionals" doesn't seem logical considering some clubs are larger than the smaller Regions. I like the idea of designating 4 "quailifying tournaments" where kids need to place in the top 3 or 4 in order to be eligible to compete at state. TOC's uses this format.

Another great option is to utilize a points system for the tournaments that are designated as state tourney qualifiers. This accomplishes 2 x things. Top 4 receive points -so you would have had to place in top 4 at a tourney and builds a points system to utilize as seeding points. Not perfect but gives kids a tracker through the year. Also could give you a best team off of number of points earned by team. May accomplish your team trophy piece throughout the year instead of the single day event. Just some thoughts that are used in other places.

Some type of qualifying tournament is inevitable. I don't believe we are there yet. The Association needs to discuss this at the next meeting. "Regionals" doesn't seem logical considering some clubs are larger than the smaller Regions. I like the idea of designating 4 "quailifying tournaments" where kids need to place in the top 3 or 4 in order to be eligible to compete at state. TOC's uses this format.

The issue with qualifying tournaments (which I am for) is that they only work if you have set weight classes. You can not have a qualifying tournament using the 10% system, because 10% brackets at regionals now, are different than 10% brackets at state. (80lbs kid will be in a regional bracket of say 78-84 at regionals, but a state bracket of 79-81)

Ranger, the TOC uses more weight classes than most state tournaments; therefore, if we use other formats that have been suggested, we're going to run into the same problem if not worse.

If we did use this format, we'd almost certainly have to find a way to split the larger brackets into half. Not sure what to do with all those small brackets. No matter what format we'd use, some type of "tweeking" would have to be done every year to adjust.

Right, but I don't think we need to copy anyone else. Use our data to create our own weight classes. For the 9-10 year olds we may go 66, 68, 70, 72 rather than 4 pound jumps if we always have a ton of kids in that range. We should have a few years of data available and should be able to reasonably determine what makes sense. And as plantman mentions, this is just a precursor to qualifiers. So at some point the 30+ man brackets are not an issue because only so many kids have qualified.

Another great option is to utilize a points system for the tournaments that are designated as state tourney qualifiers. This accomplishes 2 x things. Top 4 receive points -so you would have had to place in top 4 at a tourney and builds a points system to utilize as seeding points. Not perfect but gives kids a tracker through the year. Also could give you a best team off of number of points earned by team. May accomplish your team trophy piece throughout the year instead of the single day event. Just some thoughts that are used in other places.

I like the team points idea, but it doesn't fix the problem that apparently many have with some teams having more kids than others.

My suggestion before we start considering all of these changes, is that we (as Ranger suggested) redefine our goals as an association and for the state tournament. To me, I think a lot of the frustration on these boards is that some of us may have different goals as an association and/or with the state tournament. Lets agree to ian dea of where we want to go and make changes accordingly. That should help unite us into doing whats ultimately best for the whole versus individual self interests.

As an association, here are some questions I think we should be able to answer:

1. What is our mission as an association?

2. Are we satisfied with our numbers? Do we want to grow or are we satisfied with our current participation?

3. What can we do to help grow the other areas of the state or is this not a responsibilty of the association?

For the state tournament:

1. What is the goal of the state tournament? (is it to help drive growth, prestige for the winners, fund raiser....all of the above?)

2. Do we want it bigger, smaller, more competitive or are things good the way they are?

Right, but I don't think we need to copy anyone else. Use our data to create our own weight classes. For the 9-10 year olds we may go 66, 68, 70, 72 rather than 4 pound jumps if we always have a ton of kids in that range. We should have a few years of data available and should be able to reasonably determine what makes sense. And as plantman mentions, this is just a precursor to qualifiers. So at some point the 30+ man brackets are not an issue because only so many kids have qualified.

Right, but I don't think we need to copy anyone else. Use our data to create our own weight classes. For the 9-10 year olds we may go 66, 68, 70, 72 rather than 4 pound jumps if we always have a ton of kids in that range. We should have a few years of data available and should be able to reasonably determine what makes sense. And as plantman mentions, this is just a precursor to qualifiers. So at some point the 30+ man brackets are not an issue because only so many kids have qualified.

Theoretically, how is this any different than using the 10% rule? You are looking at data and distributing the weight classes based on where the highs and lows are to evenly distribute the participants. This is exactly what the 10% rule does, only the 10% rule gives us much more flexibilty. Furthermore, the 10% rule uses exact data from the exact weights from participants attending that particular tournament. It doesn't get any more accurate than that. The data you are looking at is from previous years and therefore not as accurate relative to the participants of that particular tournament.

Again, lets define what we are trying to do here. Do we want to make these changes just so we can have qualifiers? Are we trying to eliminate the so called "fixing" of brackets? What are we trying to accomplish by moving to weight classes? I'm not trying to start another argument, but I would like to know what the goal/benefit of making a change to weight classes from those of you who want it. And please, no more 10% rule for President sarcasm.

ooops

ooops

lol, mine did that earlier and I had to edit it, the quote button is very touchy today

The issue with qualifying tournaments (which I am for) is that they only work if you have set weight classes. You can not have a qualifying tournament using the 10% system, because 10% brackets at regionals now, are different than 10% brackets at state. (80lbs kid will be in a regional bracket of say 78-84 at regionals, but a state bracket of 79-81)

They do for Ohio's Tournament of Champions and that seems to work out fine.

Theoretically, how is this any different than using the 10% rule? You are looking at data and distributing the weight classes based on where the highs and lows are to evenly distribute the participants. This is exactly what the 10% rule does, only the 10% rule gives us much more flexibilty. Furthermore, the 10% rule uses exact data from the exact weights from participants attending that particular tournament. It doesn't get any more accurate than that. The data you are looking at is from previous years and therefore not as accurate relative to the participants of that particular tournament.

Again, lets define what we are trying to do here. Do we want to make these changes just so we can have qualifiers? Are we trying to eliminate the so called "fixing" of brackets? What are we trying to accomplish by moving to weight classes? I'm not trying to start another argument, but I would like to know what the goal/benefit of making a change to weight classes from those of you who want it. And please, no more 10% rule for President sarcasm.

I have to admit, that is a great point! We can press the reset button and/or mimic other formats, but in the end I believe we'll be right back where we currently are. There is no way to divide the weight classes using set weights to evenly distribute the classes, if that is a goal. I don't care if we use 1 lb increments. We'll still have many classes much larger than others because of more common weights. The 10% format is the best to do this because we're not boxed in by rigid barriers.

I'd like to see 10%, using 16 man brackets, with a clear, defined protocol for how the brackets get "tweaked". We need to agree on the # of kids from one team per bracket (currently 2) and whether or not to separate Regions (which I like).

Great start Matt. Exactly what we need to see. And maybe the USA age/weights. Along with the number from our state the last couple of years. But I still think we (NO I DON'T MEAN ME) have the right to make up our own. Just like we do in middle school. If our state in it's relatively young and growing state has a very different distribution of kids we should create age/weights that reflect the kids we have. I believe the middle school has created a committee in the past to propose weights to be used.

USA Wrestling classes would give us some troubles. First, their birth years aren't in sync with ours. USA ages 05-98, KY 06-99. I ran the brackets excluding our 04/05 and 00/99 groups and used everyone else (02-03, 00-01) 28 brackets.

28 total weight classes

16 brackets would have 16+ kids

6 brackets would have less than 8 kids

Major problem bracket sizes (41, 38, 31, 37, 31, 35, 35, 3, 6, 6, 6, 4, 5) Of the 28 brackets, 13 would give us problems

Also, USA has a weight limit, which we don't. I added two additional HWT classes to both age groups; otherwise, 9 kids would have been excluded from the tournament.

As one could see, USA Wrestling classes would give us some troubles too. This sample was only 2 of the 4 age groups and I made a modification.

One other point. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but obviously I feel this is an important issue. I looked at the weights of some kids that wrestled both MS and youth. I noticed, in almost every situation, the youth weights are considerably higher than their MS weight class. Now that either means the scales were wrong (doubtful), all the MS kids naturally gained significant weight in just a couple weeks (not a chance), or they were cutting weight (bingo). More importantly, there is something about the Youth State Tournament that deterred them from cutting again. Anyone have an idea what that could be? That's right, the new President of the United States....Mr. 10% rule!

More importantly, there is something about the Youth State Tournament that deterred them from cutting again. Anyone have an idea what that could be? That's right, the new President of the United States....Mr. 10% rule!

I don't believe it was the 10% rule, I believe it is the perception that dropping from wrestling 8th graders to 5th graders makes them believe less competition and no need to hold off the weight. I think a kid going to a scrimmage match goes heavier than he does a tournament. It has to do with competition levels.

Some kids wrestled up all year during MS and dropped for Districts. So their actual weight would have been heavier throughout the year.

Regardless of the 10% rule cutting weight should be regulated by parents and coaches. Most parents should be able to see what is going on under their own roof. Educating our kids about proper diet is key at an early age, no one taught my fat self, but my son prides himself on being healthy and requests foods that I may have not bought on my own. I've also brought up before that I'd like to see healthier alternatives at concession stands (practicing what we preach).

I don't believe it was the 10% rule, I believe it is the perception that dropping from wrestling 8th graders to 5th graders makes them believe less competition and no need to hold off the weight. I think a kid going to a scrimmage match goes heavier than he does a tournament. It has to do with competition levels.

Some kids wrestled up all year during MS and dropped for Districts. So their actual weight would have been heavier throughout the year.

OK, so you're conceding kids cut weight at MS (w/ set weight classes) because of competition, am I following you? If so, then by the same logic, wouldn't youth kids (who aren't super stud MS kids) have the same urge to drop w/ set weight classes because of competition?

Regardless of the 10% rule cutting weight should be regulated by parents and coaches. Most parents should be able to see what is going on under their own roof. Educating our kids about proper diet is key at an early age, no one taught my fat self, but my son prides himself on being healthy and requests foods that I may have not bought on my own. I've also brought up before that I'd like to see healthier alternatives at concession stands (practicing what we preach).

Mike, w/ all due respect, can we really trust ALL parents and ALL coaches? If we cannot, we should implement rules to regulate and protect the kids. Isn't this precisely why it's now being done at the HS and College levels? We tried letting parents and coaches regulate, and they failed miserably.

Mike, w/ all due respect, can we really trust ALL parents and ALL coaches? If we cannot, we should implement rules to regulate and protect the kids. Isn't this precisely why it's now being done at the HS and College levels now? We tried letting parents and coaches regulate, and they failed miserably.

Heck, sometimes I cant trust myself, lol. I know we cant trust ALL parents, coaches, or athletes, but the same ones who are'nt willing to help regulate the cutting of weight are probably the same ones still doing it even with the 10% rule in place. Maybe we should weigh them all in at the beginning of the season and let them know that will have some sort of bearing on where they will be allowed to wrestle at the end of the season.

I was asked by Plantman to do the brackets using Indiana's format (they use USA's classes). I found myself glancing over their state brackets and recognized a few kids that attended our Raider Rumber tournament, which I have saved. I noticed 3 kids that had dropped over 4 lbs for their Youth State Tournament vs our 10% rule Raider Rumble. Weight cutting possibly?

Heck, sometimes I cant trust myself, lol. I know we cant trust ALL parents, coaches, or athletes, but the same ones who are'nt willing to help regulate the cutting of weight are probably the same ones still doing it even with the 10% rule in place. Maybe we should weigh them all in at the beginning of the season and let them know that will have some sort of bearing on where they will be allowed to wrestle at the end of the season.

Excellent point Mike. With the current process we "trust" way too many coaches. Most of us have a pretty good hunch that some areas are either not really holding regions or the weigh ins are extremely suspect. And those coaches/parents that we don't trust are likely going to make that bad decision even under "the new President".

Heck, sometimes I cant trust myself, lol. I know we cant trust ALL parents, coaches, or athletes, but the same ones who are'nt willing to help regulate the cutting of weight are probably the same ones still doing it even with the 10% rule in place. Maybe we should weigh them all in at the beginning of the season and let them know that will have some sort of bearing on where they will be allowed to wrestle at the end of the season.

Well, obviously there is no perfect solution/format. We seem to dance back and forth between weight cutting and bracket issues w/ this topic.

I concede (you win), 10% rule will not ELIMINATE all weight cutting. In addition to consulting w/ CYW officials and having over 20 years involvement in the sport, I have 2 years of State weigh ins, Raider Rumble weights (10%) vs MS Tournaments, IN State Tournament, TOC Tournament, Border Wars weights (set weights classes). One thing cannot be disputed: the kids that wrestle in both, tend to weigh more at 10% rule tournaments! Draw whatever conclusion you'd like, I'm done trying to convince everyone.

Back to the bracket issues. What is everyone's take on that? Is there a 4th format out there we can look at to compare?

Matt. Try the KY Youth weights that you created today. It will be perfect.

I don't think anyone is claiming the 10% rule is the silver bullet for all of our problems, but it has proven to do a better job of distributing the participants evenly, reduce weight cutting, an helps make tournaments run smoother than fixed weight classes. All of which have been problems in the past with youth wrestling in our state.

JW, Plantman, Ranger- you guys seem to be for changing to weight classes, what do you think we will benefit from this change?

Matt. Try the KY Youth weights that you created today. It will be perfect.

Ha, picking up on your sarcasm.

Excellent point Mike. With the current process we "trust" way too many coaches. Most of us have a pretty good hunch that some areas are either not really holding regions or the weigh ins are extremely suspect. And those coaches/parents that we don't trust are likely going to make that bad decision even under "the new President".

I'd like to see this issue resolved, too. I got an anonymous call last year that a Region submitted weights w/out a weigh in. Major problem.

Ha, picking up on your sarcasm.

No sarcasm. Show us your creativity.

Ranger, why does he have to show creativity, he believes what we are doing now works? If you guys want to change to weight classes, then you guys should create something that you can prove works better than what we already have.

Because he has the data; not us. Plus, apparently I don't have the credentials.

Awww...did poor little Ranger get his feelings hurt? If you don't have the data or the credentials to make the change, then I guess we can just assume no changes will be made. Good, I'm glad it has been settled.

Before any bashing starts. I believe that Ranger was only try to help. Although I do not get on these boards that often, I find them somewhat humorist. I also think that we ALL at times can take others messages out of the content. It happens. However I have had the opportunity to be a coach for the Raider Youth Program years back. Now Im at the MS level coaching. I personally think we have outstanding People that are always trying to improve wrestling in KY at all levels. Stan Martin did a great job with the youth league and Raider program. I think Mall Lee has taken that program a step further and has done great job. He has surround himself with great people that care about all these kids. Darren Thomas comes to mind. Now on the MS level Ranger has done a great job with the MS Assoication and I have had hours of discussions with him on how to make this sport better throughout the state. My point to all this is that we ALL need to set EGOs aside, HS records college creditals and work together. I mean really work together. This isn't about me, you or anyone's program. It's about these kids and help grow the sport of wrestling. Now me replying to this thread isn't me bashing on anyone but to hopefully trying to keep everyone focused on what's most important..... These Kids!!!!!!

Yes I know I have some grammar issues!!! LOL!

I'm on my phone!!! Haha

Before any bashing starts. I believe that Ranger was only try to help. Although I do not get on these boards that often, I find them somewhat humorist. I also think that we ALL at times can take others messages out of the content. It happens. However I have had the opportunity to be a coach for the Raider Youth Program years back. Now Im at the MS level coaching. I personally think we have outstanding People that are always trying to improve wrestling in KY at all levels. Stan Martin did a great job with the youth league and Raider program. I think Mall Lee has taken that program a step further and has done great job. He has surround himself with great people that care about all these kids. Darren Thomas comes to mind. Now on the MS level Ranger has done a great job with the MS Assoication and I have had hours of discussions with him on how to make this sport better throughout the state. My point to all this is that we ALL need to set EGOs aside, HS records college creditals and work together. I mean really work together. This isn't about me, you or anyone's program. It's about these kids and help grow the sport of wrestling. Now me replying to this thread isn't me bashing on anyone but to hopefully trying to keep everyone focused on what's most important..... These Kids!!!!!!

I concur, Ranger is the man! I don't and never will deny how valuable he is to Kentucky Wrestling. I respect him, his opinions and ideas.

I am working on a 16 man bracket version of the 10% rule. I'll post it as soon as I get it done. Right now I'm too busy shopping at Mall Lee.

I concur, Ranger is the man! I don't and never will deny how valuable he is to Kentucky Wrestling. I respect him, his opinions and ideas.

I am working on a 16 man bracket version of the 10% rule. I'll post it as soon as I get it done. Right now I'm too busy shopping at Mall Lee.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Matt. Hey, they have a pretzel shop at Mall Lee?

Thanks for the vote of confidence Matt. Hey, they have a pretzel shop at Mall Lee?

Yes they do. I'm about to grab a Cinnabon and get the heck out of here.

Mall Lee,KY pronounciation=MOLLY

No sarcasm. Show us your creativity.

Not sure how creative it was, but I ran the tournament using 16 man brackets w/ the 10% rule. Here are the results:

65 total brackets (exact same as TOC, which I found odd).

48 full 16 man brackets (one 17 man)

17 less than 16

Major problem bracket sizes (6,4,5,5,5,3,2,3)

At first glance, some of the positives:

• More competitive. I don't know a lot of the top youth kids outside on NKY, but I saw some really tough brackets. Would be fun to watch.
  
• Less brackets, less cost. We spend quite a bit on the medals, this would naturally save $$.
  
• Evenly distributed size weight classes. Other than the 8 oddball fringe classes, 48 out of 65 is pretty good. Having the same size classes helps the tournament run smoother.
  
• Less concern w/ moving kids out of bracket. If we agreed on only 2 kids from same club per 8 man, is it save to assume 4 per 16? If so, this somehow worked out better. I didn't look at every team, but I did look at our club. We didn't have one bracket where we had more than 4.
  

Negatives:

• With larger brackets comes larger spread rate. With 8 man, it is pretty easy to keep the majority of the weight classes under 5% spread. 16 man opens the door to more 8-9% brackets. Most looked good, but there were some close.
  
• Less brackets, less medals for kids. I think it is a good thing to have more kids leaving w/ medals. (I realize I have this as both a positive and negative for all you wise guys out there!)
  

MLee,

Still would like to have that spreadsheet to do an autopsy / disection myself - please share.

JW

MLee,

Still would like to have that spreadsheet to do an autopsy / disection myself - please share.

JW

I've tried attaching the spreadsheet 3 times and it doesn't seem to work. PM me your email and I'll send it that way.

Not sure how creative it was, but I ran the tournament using 16 man brackets w/ the 10% rule. Here are the results:

65 total brackets (exact same as TOC, which I found odd).

48 full 16 man brackets (one 17 man)

17 less than 16

Major problem bracket sizes (6,4,5,5,5,3,2,3)

At first glance, some of the positives:

• More competitive. I don't know a lot of the top youth kids outside on NKY, but I saw some really tough brackets. Would be fun to watch.
  
• Less brackets, less cost. We spend quite a bit on the medals, this would naturally save $$.
  
• Evenly distributed size weight classes. Other than the 8 oddball fringe classes, 48 out of 65 is pretty good. Having the same size classes helps the tournament run smoother.
  
• Less concern w/ moving kids out of bracket. If we agreed on only 2 kids from same club per 8 man, is it save to assume 4 per 16? If so, this somehow worked out better. I didn't look at every team, but I did look at our club. We didn't have one bracket where we had more than 4.
  

Negatives:

• With larger brackets comes larger spread rate. With 8 man, it is pretty easy to keep the majority of the weight classes under 5% spread. 16 man opens the door to more 8-9% brackets. Most looked good, but there were some close.
  
• Less brackets, less medals for kids. I think it is a good thing to have more kids leaving w/ medals. (I realize I have this as both a positive and negative for all you wise guys out there!)
  

It looks like there are more positives than negatives in your breakdown. But I have to ask, why use the T.O.C. as a model? Because of the one day format? The OAC does a very good job with Ohio youth State. I think you're right on by mimicking another program that's had success, raher than trying to reinvent the wheel. And why limit the amount of wrestlers from the same club? Ohio has a handful of clubs that are the "ones to beat" and almost always have a couple boys facing off at State. But, they also have Districts for youth. That eliminates having to choose who goes and who doesn't. Top 4 placers in each weight go. Simple. One more question, does Western Ky have a different season than the rest of the State? Wouldn't that help complete some lower number brackets if they joined in the majority schedule?

MLee: If one of your major concerns is that less kids would be leaving with medals, why not place out to 6 kids like KY MS? There is no shame in a kid winning 6^th in a 16 man bracket.

It looks like there are more positives than negatives in your breakdown. But I have to ask, why use the T.O.C. as a model? Because of the one day format? The OAC does a very good job with Ohio youth State. I think you're right on by mimicking another program that's had success, raher than trying to reinvent the wheel. And why limit the amount of wrestlers from the same club? Ohio has a handful of clubs that are the "ones to beat" and almost always have a couple boys facing off at State. But, they also have Districts for youth. That eliminates having to choose who goes and who doesn't. Top 4 placers in each weight go. Simple. One more question, does Western Ky have a different season than the rest of the State? Wouldn't that help complete some lower number brackets if they joined in the majority schedule?

Stalling,

I am ok w/ the current format, but am open to making changes/improvements. I was asked to look at other formats (TOC, USA Wrestling) weight classes to compare the differences. I'll take a look at OAC, but I believe they use USA weight classes if I'm not mistaken.

This has been discussed before, but we cannot compare ourselves to OH. It's like comparing apples and soccer balls in my opinion. They have more kids in Cincinnati than we do in our whole state; hence, their need for quailifiers. We're on track to need qualifying tournaments in the future, but I don't believe we're there yet. This is something the association should discuss at the next meeting: how many kids before we have qualifiers?

I don't mind having multiple kids from one club in the same bracket. However, who wants to see a bracket of 8 kids from the same club? Unlike OH, we have a handful of large clubs and the rest are much smaller in comparison. An effort has been made to separate the kids a bit for everyone (kids, coaches, parents).

I don't have any answers regarding WKY. It would be great to get more WKY kids to our state tournament. I was told they started their season after ours, but not sure.

MLee: If one of your major concerns is that less kids would be leaving with medals, why not place out to 6 kids like KY MS? There is no shame in a kid winning 6^th in a 16 man bracket.

Makes sense to me. I was told cost was one of the reasons coaches voted against team scores (trophies), so I just wanted to throw that out there. I'm all for more medals for kids vs less, regardless of cost.

As an outsider looking in, not to step on anyone's toes or overstep my bounds, one thing I see and it is just my opinion. You need 1 governing body for school wrestling and one for non-school related. KSWA (Kentucky state wrestling association) They oversee the weekend tournaments, weigh in's and co-ordinate the state events. I have to say, Kentucky wrestling has grown at an impressive rate over the last 10 years, my hats are off to you! Indiana's model is not perfect by any means, but the orginization and structure keep things flowing smoothly! http://www.iswa.com/

Coach Danny Struck at Jeff high is either president or VP and would be more than helpful to help anyone needing some questions answered. We attended the USA Kentucky State at Central in Louisville this year, not the best showing for Kentucky! Hard to find literature, event was moved, facility was not great. Just my 2 cents, I try and support Kentucky wrestling as much as possible, better competition makes for better wrestlers and God knows our region can use all the help it can get. Keep up the good work.

I just found out that Minnesota uses 10% rule for their youth state tournament and it appears they use qualifiers as well. Here is a link to their tournament info:

http://assets.ngin.c...ormation_2_.pdf

They only use it for pee wee and bantan, so up to about 8 years old. The rest uses USA weight classes. It would be interesting to hear why they choose to mix it up. Seems a bit odd.

They only use it for pee wee and bantan, so up to about 8 years old. The rest uses USA weight classes. It would be interesting to hear why they choose to mix it up. Seems a bit odd.

I emailed their tournament director to find out why. Hopefully, I'll get a response.

As an outsider looking in, not to step on anyone's toes or overstep my bounds, one thing I see and it is just my opinion. You need 1 governing body for school wrestling and one for non-school related. KSWA (Kentucky state wrestling association) They oversee the weekend tournaments, weigh in's and co-ordinate the state events. I have to say, Kentucky wrestling has grown at an impressive rate over the last 10 years, my hats are off to you! Indiana's model is not perfect by any means, but the orginization and structure keep things flowing smoothly! http://www.iswa.com/

Coach Danny Struck at Jeff high is either president or VP and would be more than helpful to help anyone needing some questions answered. We attended the USA Kentucky State at Central in Louisville this year, not the best showing for Kentucky! Hard to find literature, event was moved, facility was not great. Just my 2 cents, I try and support Kentucky wrestling as much as possible, better competition makes for better wrestlers and God knows our region can use all the help it can get. Keep up the good work.

As far as the tourney at Central, that was an off-season tourney. Unfortunately not as many kids wrestling in the off season and not really representative of what you would see during a regular season tourney. I been to a few off season tourneys in Indiana also and can't really say there turnout was much better.

I absolutely agree that some of the local off-season tourneys in Indiana have a horrible turnout, I am by no means bashing Kentucky and praising Indiana. There is room for much improvement in both. What I was saying is communication, website content, organization and some form of governance would improve Kentucky wrestling immensely. "The KY USA Wrestling State Folkstyle Tournament on March 31st has been moved from Male to Louisville Central." If Indiana had a tourney called Indiana "State" there would be 1000 kids there, the best from all over the state. We assumed that this was a state championship event. Apparently we were confused. Like I said, I am not bashing Kentucky wrestling, I want to be a part of my son wrestling in some tough tournaments in Kentucky, just want things to be a positive experience for everyone involved. In Indiana you have a few months of individual sanctioned tournaments and at the end of the folkstyle season you have the state championship. Seems fairly cut and dried to me. Now they do throw in the MS state event which confused me a bit, but the rest of how it is laid out, where you find the schedules, all the rules, weights and everything else is very straightforward and user friendly.

It is relatively straightforward, if you are a KY person who has been involved. I can see where you were confused on the USA state. The KSWA and KYSWA govern the "normal season" which includes regional and state events. There are typically a few "off season" events sanctioned through USA wrestling from March through May. While the event at Central was called a state championship, it is not considered by most around the state as a true championship event. It is completely outside our season.

But until it is fairly straightforward to anyone who wants to come wrestle a tourney in Kentucky it's not straightforward at all. So during season you don't have tournaments? Indiana has sanctioned events that run with their season starting maybe 3 or 4 weeks after regular "school" season begins. ISWA state finals are about 3 or 4 weeks after end of regular "school" season. You go to their website, click on tournaments and you find 3 or 4 tournaments every weekend all around the state with the State tournament held in Indianapolis at the conclusion of Folkstyle, you then have 6-8 weeks of Freestyle/Greco and the then State finals for them and may have a triple crown winner if they win all 3 styles.I see 18 tournaments listed as non-sanctioned on KYSWA and not real sure if there is anything or what is going on in the sanctioned folder. Now I'm not the sharpest tack in the bunch, but I am fairly competent, doesn't seem very user friendly to me. And "KSWA and KYSWA govern the "normal season" which includes regional and state events" which one is it, which website and is there a KSWA site? Is it jointly controlled? Just seems very confusing and not set up for a USA style wrestling season outside of the regular school season.

Now all that being said, High school cannot compete in an ISWA tournament until their season is over. I am completely referring to youth wrestling k-8.

We can chat in Mason in a couple weeks. I don't think we are that different, especially at the middle school level. The problem at the youth level (we consider this elementary) is that there are not that many in state events. In NKY we compete in OH most weekends.

Hey, I think the competition level in Kentucky is right there with us in Indiana now, and that couldn't always be said. The year round programs and the HS programs have grown by leaps and bounds, no animosity intended in the least, I have alot of respect for you and anyone else dedicating their time to all our kids. Wish I could get more matches between Indiana and Kentucky. We do have the battle of the bridge for the HS all-stars which is nice, but not much for the middle school guys, our middle schoolers aren't allowed to compete in HS events either, that is a huge advantage for your MS kids. I look forward to talking and meeting you in Mason.

I have to agree with Hoosierdad on things not being simple when it comes to finding youth tournaments in KY. This is my son's first year wrestling, and he has mostly competed independently (without a team). Therefore, we have had to find tournaments on our own. We are in central KY, so most events in KY are within an acceptable distance. But many weekends we drove to TN, IN or OH just because their websites were easier to navigate. All the events are listed in order of date, and most have fliers attached with all the contact info needed. We haven't been able to find anything like that for KY youth wrestling. We just see events posted on this forum a week or two before they are held, nothing where all the state youth events are listed together. We would much prefer to wrestle every weekend in KY, but finding events can take a lot of time, much more than in our surrounding states.

I have to agree with Hoosierdad on things not being simple when it comes to finding youth tournaments in KY. This is my son's first year wrestling, and he has mostly competed independently (without a team). Therefore, we have had to find tournaments on our own. We are in central KY, so most events in KY are within an acceptable distance. But many weekends we drove to TN, IN or OH just because their websites were easier to navigate. All the events are listed in order of date, and most have fliers attached with all the contact info needed. We haven't been able to find anything like that for KY youth wrestling. We just see events posted on this forum a week or two before they are held, nothing where all the state youth events are listed together. We would much prefer to wrestle every weekend in KY, but finding events can take a lot of time, much more than in our surrounding states.

I couldn't agree more. KY Youth Wrestling is experiencing many "growing pains" we're dealing with. Getting more organized and improving our communication in particular. I suggest creating a thread w/ more suggestions and comments regarding this important topic. This topic is in reference to set weight classes vs 10% rule differences.

I couldn't agree more. KY Youth Wrestling is experiencing many "growing pains" we're dealing with. Getting more organized and improving our communication in particular. I suggest creating a thread w/ more suggestions and comments regarding this important topic. This topic is in reference to set weight classes vs 10% rule differences.

Mlee, I only brought up using Ohio as an example because a couple people on this thread used Cincinatti Youth organization as an example of how well the 10 percent rule worked. Yet you keep saying you can't compare Ohio and Ky because there were more kids in Cincy than the whole of Ky. That's ridiculous. Especially when you have the whole of western Ky doing their own thing with their own season and their own State tourney. I've seen arguements on here about which one was the REAL State Championship. Get them in line, and your numbers will easily sustain a district/set weight method. With set weight classes, you have kids wrestling where they are supposed to. And with district eliminations you have kids that are at State because they earned it, not because they floated in on some shuffling around in the brackets. Not only will having set weights established make it cut and dry for wreslers and coaches, but it will ease the amount of work the organisers are doing with the brackets (something I hear a lot of complaing about). No more alleged favoritism by host teams. You make weight, you're put in a bracket and lace em up. Or you don't make weight and you go home. SIMPLIFY.

Mlee, I only brought up using Ohio as an example because a couple people on this thread used Cincinatti Youth organization as an example of how well the 10 percent rule worked. Yet you keep saying you can't compare Ohio and Ky because there were more kids in Cincy than the whole of Ky. That's ridiculous. Especially when you have the whole of western Ky doing their own thing with their own season and their own State tourney. I've seen arguements on here about which one was the REAL State Championship. Get them in line, and your numbers will easily sustain a district/set weight method. With set weight classes, you have kids wrestling where they are supposed to. And with district eliminations you have kids that are at State because they earned it, not because they floated in on some shuffling around in the brackets. Not only will having set weights established make it cut and dry for wreslers and coaches, but it will ease the amount of work the organisers are doing with the brackets (something I hear a lot of complaing about). No more alleged favoritism by host teams. You make weight, you're put in a bracket and lace em up. Or you don't make weight and you go home. SIMPLIFY.

Not sure why you're getting so defensive. I agreed w/ you. I simply would like this topic stay on track and be constructive. For some reason, everyone gets so heated and angry, it becomes counter-productive. I was asked to compare our format to others, so I did. I started w/ Ohio's TOC and USA Wrestling.

Now, regarding the rest of your comment. Not sure where to begin? First, I don't believe it is the association's job to "get them in line." The fact is: WKY has gone rogue and decided to do their own thing. They have their reasons. I might not agree with it, but at least they're wrestling.

And if you've followed the bouncing ball, you should have seen the MAJOR problems w/ set weight classes in our youth state. The evidence is there. You can choose to ignore if you'd like, but until someone SHOWS the association a format that is better (not just "lace them up" attitude), the 10% rule shouldn't go anywhere.

As far as the "don't make weight and go home" comment. I'm at a complete loss for words. You do realize we have 6 year olds attending our tournament? What a great way to promote our sport..."Sorry Mr. Johnson, your 6 year old was overweight. He can either put these plastics on and cut that half a pound or go home." We might as well be handing out basketball sign ups while we're at it!

Mlee, I only brought up using Ohio as an example because a couple people on this thread used Cincinatti Youth organization as an example of how well the 10 percent rule worked. Yet you keep saying you can't compare Ohio and Ky because there were more kids in Cincy than the whole of Ky. That's ridiculous. Especially when you have the whole of western Ky doing their own thing with their own season and their own State tourney. I've seen arguements on here about which one was the REAL State Championship. Get them in line, and your numbers will easily sustain a district/set weight method. With set weight classes, you have kids wrestling where they are supposed to. And with district eliminations you have kids that are at State because they earned it, not because they floated in on some shuffling around in the brackets. Not only will having set weights established make it cut and dry for wreslers and coaches, but it will ease the amount of work the organisers are doing with the brackets (something I hear a lot of complaing about). No more alleged favoritism by host teams. You make weight, you're put in a bracket and lace em up. Or you don't make weight and you go home. SIMPLIFY.

Stalling,

Comparing Ohio and Kentucky youth wrestling at this point is ridiculous. They have more kids wrestling youth in just Southwest Ohio than our entire state. Keep in mind that isn't including Northwest, which is their hotbed, or Central Ohio which is as big as Louisville and Lexington combined. They have an established system of many large teams all across the state. I'm just speculating, but they probably have more youth wreslters than Kentucky has youth, middle and high combined. Here is a crazy Ohio wrestling stat: in 2002, 3 graduates from St. Ed's in Cleveland earned D-1 All-American status at the same weight class! Kentucky has had 3 D-1 All-Americans in our entire history. Could you imagine having 3 kids from Trinity or Union County all-american at the same weight? Think about that for a second.

There are some things that make sense to take from and compare to Ohio and some that things that don't. Ohio's numbers clearly support having qualifying tournaments whereas ours clearly do not. Last year, Cincinnati's City-Wide tournament had over 200 more participants than our state tournament and they don't have a qualifying tournament and they use 10% rule.

Having set weight classes makes running a youth tournament more difficult, not easier. The 10% rule was desinged to simplify as you suggest. With 10% rule, tournament directors have way more flexibility to evenly spread the distribution of particpants. With set weight classes, we'll have such a log jam at certain weights that you will have to split those weights into mulitple brackets anyway. So to claim having set weight classes proves something more or less than brackets set up by 10% rule is a farse. If so many people claim there is favoritism with the brackets, there is a much simpler solution: just have a committee comprised of coaches from all over setting the brackets so you don't leave it to one team.

I was in the room for a while as Coach Lee put the brackets together last year. I assure you, there was no favoritsm going on. There was barely enough time to get them done. Coach Lee was up to almost 4:00am fixing someone else's mistake and what thanks does he get? A bunch of paranoid people claiming he deliberatly "left off 40 kids from a rival club" and people with no evidence suggesting he was fixing brackets...its pathetic. Turns out he had nothing to do with the kids being left off the brackets and that coach from NKY who made that claim has yet to come on here and apologize for his accusation. Coaching, running tournaments and helping run the state tournament is a thankless job and people like Coach Lee and Ranger (yes, even I respect all that you do Poobah) should be commended.

Many of us think getting WKY on board with the rest of the state is a top priority. There is way too much talent and tradition in that part of the state to ignore. I think some coaches down there want to change the dates of the season to much later which would be a big step back from our perspective. I don't think anyone up here has an answer to that problem, but I'm sure we'd love to figure it out.

Let me say first, MLee, I didn't mean to come off defensive. If you perceived it that way, I apologize. I was merely pointing out that a few people were using Ohio youth as an example. So, using that as your example, you do realize that they hold district meets for youth. If Ky simply doesn't have the numbers to hold districts, maybe people shouldn't use that example as a model. If numbers are so low, why does there seem like there are a ton of issues that coaches want to resolve? Growth is one thing, but apparently somethings are in need of rearranging. With such low numbers (Cincy has more wrestlers than the entire state of Ky), then why all the desire to ease the chore and make it easier? Btw, I never said there was favoritism by host clubs... a couple others on here did. I just pointed out that set weights would eliminate that. And yes, Make weight or go home. If a 6yo weighs in at 50 lbs at the beginning of the season, then allow for a 3 or 5 lb growth allowance at State. Keeps people honest. If you come in wheighing 60 plus, sorry, but somethings not right. My own son just turned 15 2 weeks ago. 6ft, 220. He never gained more than 20lbs a year, so a kid gaining only 3 to 5lbs in 2 to 3 months is reasonable. Set weights, no shifting on brackets equals less work for people running the event. Ohio also has odd brackets with a lot of kids and some end up with just a handful. Its just the nature of the beast. I don't claim to have all the answers, but an open discussion without attitude is required to grow Ky wrestling. Btw, I understand western Ky went rogue. That's not the rest of Kys fault. But, as one poster said, elect ONE governing body to run youth wrestling. Either get on board, or be left out.

Just my 2 cents (for what it is worth ) on the bracket issues. The feedback I heard from those organizing the event (who I trust) and the discussions I was involved in on that Saturday night indicate to me that there was no monkey business by Coach Lee with the brackets. He was asked to help resolve the issues and presented the very best option to deal with the problems in a short time frame. So hopefully we can move past that issue. We do get very competitive and emotional at times (especially up here in N KY) and want to find a reason to dislike people and/or programs. But this one doesn't work. No wrongdoing here.

Just my 2 cents (for what it is worth ) on the bracket issues. The feedback I heard from those organizing the event (who I trust) and the discussions I was involved in on that Saturday night indicate to me that there was no monkey business by Coach Lee with the brackets. He was asked to help resolve the issues and presented the very best option to deal with the problems in a short time frame. So hopefully we can move past that issue. We do get very competitive and emotional at times (especially up here in N KY) and want to find a reason to dislike people and/or programs. But this one doesn't work. No wrongdoing here.

I absolutely agree with you. I personally doubt any wrong doing was done with any brackets. I was just saying with set weights it would remove that arguement from people that would and have implied such. Keep working, people like you are what makes this sport better and better. It takes a few good discussions sometimes to hammer things out, and that's ok.

I absolutely agree with you. I personally doubt any wrong doing was done with any brackets. I was just saying with set weights it would remove that arguement from people that would and have implied such. Keep working, people like you are what makes this sport better and better. It takes a few good discussions sometimes to hammer things out, and that's ok.

Amen!

I feel for all of you and can truly relate, You seem to assume that since I am from Indiana that I have not nor do I understand the issues with Kentucky wrestling. I am in New Albany, may as well be Louisville, and have seen good tourneys in the state and very bad tourneys in the state. Southern Indiana with the exception of the Evansville area, has horrible turnouts for most tournaments, we do try and find a few Louisville area events to attend to keep our kids on the mat but usually only find 2 or 3 a year that are well orginized and easy to get into!. You want to fix the issues? Use the resources you have available, Indiana is not your enemy nor do we hold any animosity at all. On the contrary, I think you would find we want Kentucky wrestling to prosper almost as much as you do. As I said before, you need one governing body! Period! For Pee-wee - Junior! not just youth. Please, someone, whoever has taken the bull by the horns to get the ball rolling, talk to Coach Struck from Jeffersonville High school! He is a wealth of information and goes so far above and beyond to help the sport. I'm not sure but maybe the difference in the middle school issues between Southern Indiana and Kentucky is, we have about 12 - 14 meets, local schools which their usually is a handful of kids that are good the rest not so much, so the ISWA meets are very important as they are our competition, the time when our kids improve the most. We usually try and do about 15 - 20 The 10% rule in my opinion isn't the answer, give a 2 pound allowance, 15 lbs. on a 150 pound kid makes a big difference in a match, especially at the middle school level. Most of our tourneys are in the Indianapolis area so almost every weekend we're driving 2 hours 1 way. You want to compete with Northern Indiana and Ohio? Have year round wrestling clubs, bring in guest clinicians, better matches make for better wrestlers, travel to where the competition is! ISWA doesn't sit and do brackets for local tournaments, the school and people who put it on do, some use trackwrestling, some don't but from what I hear, it really helps things. The state tourney should have districts but as is it's a free for all and most weight classes have between 25 and 75 kids +\- On site weigh ins or satellite sites are the only way to go, honor system doesn't work, and only causes people to scream of cheating. Start with getting with Western Kentucky and get the ball rolling, don't hesitate to ask for help, you might be surprised at who is waiting in the wings!

This is probably easier to discuss and answer questions in person rather than typing, so we will talk in Mason on July 14. But we are doing great at the middle school level. Plenty of in-season meets, growth, ever-improving competition. We are growing at the youth level and the state tournament is a great event. Much of this discussion is simply about making it better and taking the next step in our evolution.

bump

I like the current system. Never going to stop kids from cutting weight not sure what the problem is with the system we are currently using. I didn't see any kids at state who wrestled out of weight (wasn't really looking). I think most of our coaches are honest (may be naive). I like how the weights were checked before awards were given. If there were a lot of kids wrestling much higher than they were reported THEN we have a problem. But, IMO, weigh ins are a huge headache at a event this big. Can't see how we could have weigh ins the night before with high school wrestling going on. No need to try and fix a problem we don't have ie......Kids wrestling under false weights.

I like the current system. Never going to stop kids from cutting weight not sure what the problem is with the system we are currently using. I didn't see any kids at state who wrestled out of weight (wasn't really looking). I think most of our coaches are honest (may be naive). I like how the weights were checked before awards were given. If there were a lot of kids wrestling much higher than they were reported THEN we have a problem. But, IMO, weigh ins are a huge headache at a event this big. Can't see how we could have weigh ins the night before with high school wrestling going on. No need to try and fix a problem we don't have ie......Kids wrestling under false weights.

I agree. I don't understand why so many people want to tinker with things when the current state of Kentucky wrestling has never been better. I don't have hard numbers, but I'd guarantee that our state has never had more kids wrestling at all levels than it does now. We haven't had nearly as many kids wrestling in college as we do now. Our best kids and teams are far better now than they ever were when comparing them to the rest of the country. I've never seen Kentucky have so many kids ranked in national rankings as we have now. Teams like CC and UC won team titles in out of state tournaments that no team from Kentucky ever won in the past. Our youth numbers continue to grow in both number of participants and number of teams. We now have solid college wrestling in the state.

You can go on and on about how great it is. I talked with two coaching legends, Joe Carr and Mike Bankamper, at youth state this year about this exact topic. Both were praising how great youth wrestling has gotten in KY in such a short time. Why change something that isn't broken?