Haven't seen much discussion on this yet. If there's a thread on it, feel free to delete/merge/whatever with this one.

Region duals, when it comes down to it, mean only one thing this year: seeding for region tourneys. No more of the top two teams from each region moving on to State Duals.

The Duals have been divided into big school-small school. Not sure of the exact cutoff, but Gary Canter told me it's around 1,000. I'm still not sure what to make of it.

Sectional Duals are Jan. 12. From the schedules I've received so far, Central Hardin and North Hardin are at Graves County, John Hardin is at Meade County and LaRue County is at Louisville Western.

What say you guys? Do you like this format? Or do you want to wait and see how it goes this year before passing judgment?

Haven't seen much discussion on this yet. If there's a thread on it, feel free to delete/merge/whatever with this one.

Region duals, when it comes down to it, mean only one thing this year: seeding for region tourneys. No more of the top two teams from each region moving on to State Duals.

The Duals have been divided into big school-small school. Not sure of the exact cutoff, but Gary Canter told me it's around 1,000. I'm still not sure what to make of it.

Sectional Duals are Jan. 12. From the schedules I've received so far, Central Hardin and North Hardin are at Graves County, John Hardin is at Meade County and LaRue County is at Louisville Western.

What say you guys? Do you like this format? Or do you want to wait and see how it goes this year before passing judgment?

personally I am not a fan of it but it is what it is. My only question is where the heck are state duals going to be held at this year?

Told state duals will be at Fern Creek

I heard the same thing too.. But I was told it wasn't set in stone.

LaRue County's schedule has it listed as being at Fern Creek, but others I have say Henry Clay.

State duals will be at Fern Creek this year.

for both big and little?

Does anyone know the "sectionals" alignment?

Go to May 17th 2012 post "state duals". Coach Mccoy has it there.

mat-king...yes suppossedly they are putting down 8 mats from what I've heard (4 for each division). 4 pools of 3 teams (much like what Middle School does). Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Will be interesting finding refs for this event now...lots of tournaments in KY that weekend at both the MS and HS level.

Just found the topic, in case anyone would like to read through it:

Just found the topic, in case anyone would like to read through it:

Thanks Josh

I read through the original thread and I still don't see one good argument for why a small school can't "bump up" if it so chooses. The "big schools can't bump down" holds no weight because based on enrollments the big schools have an inherent advantage as they have a much larger pool to choose wrestlers from. However, if a small school feels it would be better served competing with the "big boys", what's the problem? While this split might have it's advantages; it will undoubtedly weaken the prestige associated with winning State Duals. To me there seems to be one of two underlying reasons for the split to have occurred, one with an easy remedy and the other isn't fixable.

Reason #1: A large portion of small schools don't feel they can compete with the big schools - I can sympathize with this to an extent but, it could easily be solved by just hosting a separate "Small School Only" State Duals similar to the "All A" tournaments used in basketball. With this option you give the small schools a chance to compete while still maintaining the prestige of State Duals. This would also meet the "encourage participation" argument used by some.

Reason #2: The big schools are tired of LaRue and Union whooping up on them. - In this case, I say "practice harder", but don't cheapen a premier event in our sport because you can't compete...

I'm with you Damon. State duals has just become another weekend event.

Not that i care either way, but with the naysayers philosophy, why does the ncaa have 3 divisions and then there is naia. There is not a college dual for all of them to compete against each other.

How could they put down 8 mats? Is the FC gym big enough to hold that many mats with the best teams in the state (i say that because many of the better teams have large fan bases that travel with them everywhere they go)And to have 8 Mats they would have to push in one side of bleachers, That would just be crazy with no room for fans with that many teams. and still i only see a possible 6 mats. I just do not see how that could be possible to do? Just got thinking about this

Not that i care either way, but with the naysayers philosophy, why does the ncaa have 3 divisions and then there is naia. There is not a college dual for all of them to compete against each other.

...if a school chooses and meets the requirements it can make the move up divisions. The small schools in our state are not afforded this option.

I believe one of the requirements is size of school which is the case here, again i, being military have lived in more states than most, and there are pros and cons to many states, leagues, etc. if the small school was goin to win the combined, they will win the small school division.... Still being crowned state duals champs. No team will get cohorted to the same college so the individuals will still make their claim to fame and scholarship run in mid February. Keep it about the wrestlers achievement and it is much easier to deal with rules like this that should have been thought out more.

I believe one of the requirements is size of school which is the case here, again i, being military have lived in more states than most, and there are pros and cons to many states, leagues, etc. if the small school was goin to win the combined, they will win the small school division.... Still being crowned state duals champs. No team will get cohorted to the same college so the individuals will still make their claim to fame and scholarship run in mid February. Keep it about the wrestlers achievement and it is much easier to deal with rules like this that should have been thought out more.

There are attendance and participation requirements depending on sport, but no "size of the school" or enrollment requirements.

This was voted upon by coaches. I am going to remain neutral on this but I do want to address something DamonMBarnes has posted.....

Reason #2: The big schools are tired of LaRue and Union whooping up on them. - In this case, I say "practice harder", but don't cheapen a premier event in our sport because you can't compete...

Practice Harder? Have you ever walked a foot in my practice room? I don't think so. Trinity's? Probably not. Also, look at my schedule....Larue is on it so obviously I'm not tired of being whooped on by smaller schools. I welcome tougher competition. This wasn't about making it easier for bigger schools (in fact it was most fought for by the smaller schools) but before you go off making a statement about Coaches needing to practice harder you should probably look into what some are doing.

This was voted upon by coaches. I am going to remain neutral on this but I do want to address something DamonMBarnes has posted.....

Reason #2: The big schools are tired of LaRue and Union whooping up on them. - In this case, I say "practice harder", but don't cheapen a premier event in our sport because you can't compete...

Practice Harder? Have you ever walked a foot in my practice room? I don't think so. Trinity's? Probably not. Also, look at my schedule....Larue is on it so obviously I'm not tired of being whooped on by smaller schools. I welcome tougher competition. This wasn't about making it easier for bigger schools (in fact it was most fought for by the smaller schools) but before you go off making a statement about Coaches needing to practice harder you should probably look into what some are doing.

As I said, I feel that one of the reasons I stated is where this truly comes from. I didn't say which one as I have no idea how the votes went down. However, I think you are taking my statement out of context as it only applies if you are a big school who doesn't want the small schools wrestling in a real State Duals championship . From your post this doesn't seem to be the case...

Could you possibly address the option of letting small schools bump up if they so choose? Like Ranger said, State Duals is now just "another weekend" instead of a premier event on the calendar.

From the start of the talks about splitting the duals, it has always been about promotion of growth for wrestling in Kentucky.

And wouldn't letting small schools bump up defeat your purpose? You say its less meaningful now cause larue and union can't wrestle up to big school. But would it not make the small school title mean less for whoever wins it, if they are not in it?

I would like to see an at large, like they use to do in football. Have a small school winner and a big school winner, then they wrestle for at large title

I think Damon is saying it'll mean less because of the split, not because schools like LaRue and Union can't bump up.

And I agree with him. Winning State Duals gave teams a reason to brag for an entire year, and it really proved who the best team was. Now that's it's split, that won't happen.

Damon, if I'm in the wrong here, my apologies. But that's where I think you're heading with your argument.

I think Damon is saying it'll mean less because of the split, not because schools like LaRue and Union can't bump up.

And I agree with him. Winning State Duals gave teams a reason to brag for an entire year, and it really proved who the best team was. Now that's it's split, that won't happen.

Damon, if I'm in the wrong here, my apologies. But that's where I think you're heading with your argument.

Yep, this pretty much sums it up. Allowing schools the opportunity to bump up will help bring some of the prestige back to it --- but the prestige left when the split happened.

What I am saying is the split has happened, so to keep the integrity of having two champs, the small school need to stay with there group. If not you end up with a small school champ that would have finished 2 or 3rd. That takes away from the small schools prestige of winning a title if the true small school champ wrestled with big schools. The small school champ would have no credibility then.

There is still bragging rites to winning. You don't see football teams like Louisville Central wanting to bump up to play Trinity for state. They are champions of there school size, and its prestigious. You don't devalue it because they didn't play "big" schools

And I agree with him. Winning State Duals gave teams a reason to brag for an entire year, and it really proved who the best team was. Now that's it's split, that won't happen.

I'm not sure many teams actually brag about winning state duals. As long as the state tourney at the end of the year determins the true state championship team the state duals champion is not as prestigious as people want to make it.

And this is comming from someone who was affiliated with teams that have won both state duals and the state tourny.

I hate to invade every post but the state tournament gets to have everyone in it big and small it seems like everyone would not mind having some seperation here and there regardless of who's kicking who's or who's whooping who's or not spread the love let some teams that might not get the chance make a big tournament and get that experience . And if anyone wants to whoop anyone's team do it at state or set up a dual meet with them ,

I understand that sometimes its not the sise of the school but the sise of the squad the talent in it the history The time or coaching or a number Of things . I'm sure there has been yrs that the small schools win the duals and the big ones would win other years . I think the teams looking for the comp should feel lucky that KY has only 1 div that gives you all the comp you could ask for , some states have 3 or more div .if the littl schools want to whoop the big ones they can set up a dual whenever between the two two schools in each div or four or whatever then those little boogers can whoop all the tail they want :)/>

I look at it this way. I started my coaching career at what was at the time one of the smallest (if not the smallest) school in ky with a wrestling program. And my philosophy was that if I was ever able to build what they have at larue I would hate to not be able to win a true state duals championship. Are there really 12 "small" schools that will field a full lineup?

There is still bragging rites to winning. You don't see football teams like Louisville Central wanting to bump up to play Trinity for state. They are champions of there school size, and its prestigious. You don't devalue it because they didn't play "big" schools

Central has wanted to play Trinity in football in the past; Trinity would have none of it. Instead, Central has to "settle" for playing St. X every year -- and going toe to toe with them.

Winning the team championship at State is a great accomplishment, but you could have two or three kids win that for a team. That's why there's so much more emphasis on winning the State Duals. It takes the whole team to achieve that.

You have a point, scoring is different with less teams and fewer studs , but two of three kids cannot win state , a few champs and a few placers may but two or three kids scoring straight pins WOULD not win state , four maybe two or three PERFECT would not win .

State duals in any state have not been around as long as the state championship and no one would trade duals for the state championship , unless of course they can win the duals and not the state team title ,let the coaches vote on it and majority rules , but perhap everyone can be happy have the duals then let the top four small and large have their own duals .who cares whatever it takes to make everyone happy .

I look at it this way. I started my coaching career at what was at the time one of the smallest (if not the smallest) school in ky with a wrestling program. And my philosophy was that if I was ever able to build what they have at larue I would hate to not be able to win a true state duals championship. Are there really 12 "small" schools that will field a full lineup?

Two thumbs way up!

I hate to invade every post but the state tournament gets to have everyone in it big and small it seems like everyone would not mind having some seperation here and there regardless of who's kicking who's or who's whooping who's or not spread the love let some teams that might not get the chance make a big tournament and get that experience . And if anyone wants to whoop anyone's team do it at state or set up a dual meet with them ,

I understand that sometimes its not the sise of the school but the sise of the squad the talent in it the history The time or coaching or a number Of things . I'm sure there has been yrs that the small schools win the duals and the big ones would win other years . I think the teams looking for the comp should feel lucky that KY has only 1 div that gives you all the comp you could ask for , some states have 3 or more div .if the littl schools want to whoop the big ones they can set up a dual whenever between the two two schools in each div or four or whatever then those little boogers can whoop all the tail they want :)/>

Mpire, the small schools can still have a "small school state duals". Make it like the All A classic in basketball. But that way you still have the State Duals for ALL the top teams to compete in. If the big schools aren't the ones pushing for this, then I fail to see the problem in this scenario. The small schools are happy because they have their own duals and the people who want to see a "true" state duals champion still get to see one. Also, a premier in-state weekend is kept intact.

A lot of states don't have a "true" state duals champ,They are divided into divisions. We had one champ before, but to promote growth this is what coaches wanted to do. To move forward in the expansion of the sport, that's just one thing that was compromised on. may not be the best thing, but if it helps expand wrestling I'm for it. Plus don't forget, this is a trial run. It could change in 2 yrs. Let's see how it actually works for a year first.

Ill throw this out there. If we let small schools bump up it is only fair that we allow big schools to bump down. Than in essence we have created no boundaries and allowed teams to pick and choose where they want to go. The purpose of the split was to see if it helps with growth. Small schools for years have asked the KHSAA to make the split using North Carolina's growth as the model so the KYWCA decided to hear those coaches and do a trial period with the State Duals to see if it does in fact help with growth.

Im sure I will get eaten alive for what I am about to say but oh well hear it goes....

State Duals did not lose its prestige becasue of this split. To me, the event not the results, never really had that much in the first place. The reason is the wrestling community itself. Let me finish. I have been a big proponent of building the event by eliminating all tournaments on that weekend except for State Duals but I have been fought all along the way. If you eliminate other tournaments, it allows those fans and wrestlers to come and watch the tournament. I have ran the state duals and been apart of it for several years now and I can tell you the reason Henry Clay and Fern Creek are big enough to host it is because the only fans in attendance are those with the teams there. I would love to see other teams bring their team to watch and wrestling fans make it a premier event like it is in other states. This is just my two cents and my two cents only.

The KHSAA does not allow a big-school team to bump down in class. Why would the wrestling coaches allow that to happen? Makes absolutely no sense.

Ill throw this out there. If we let small schools bump up it is only fair that we allow big schools to bump down. Than in essence we have created no boundaries and allowed teams to pick and choose where they want to go. The purpose of the split was to see if it helps with growth. Small schools for years have asked the KHSAA to make the split using North Carolina's growth as the model so the KYWCA decided to hear those coaches and do a trial period with the State Duals to see if it does in fact help with growth.

Im sure I will get eaten alive for what I am about to say but oh well hear it goes....

State Duals did not lose its prestige becasue of this split. To me, the event not the results, never really had that much in the first place. The reason is the wrestling community itself. Let me finish. I have been a big proponent of building the event by eliminating all tournaments on that weekend except for State Duals but I have been fought all along the way. If you eliminate other tournaments, it allows those fans and wrestlers to come and watch the tournament. I have ran the state duals and been apart of it for several years now and I can tell you the reason Henry Clay and Fern Creek are big enough to host it is because the only fans in attendance are those with the teams there. I would love to see other teams bring their team to watch and wrestling fans make it a premier event like it is in other states. This is just my two cents and my two cents only.

I would disagree with your first part for reasons I stated in my original post.

But I really like the second part. Helping to promote State Duals and making it the only show in town would help make it more of a marquee event. That is something I believe would help grow interest.

Sorry but I don't think it would help as much as people may think the duals are for the top teams the others generally listen in as far as forums and such but I doubt it would become a big event like state all it would do would shut down wrestling for those that did not make the state duals and keep them from wrestling ,

Having other duals along with them in a very big setting would probably work a bit better opening them up to a large number of teams as a separate duals or maybe even a tournament , it would eliminate a lot of the top kids but for studs who are on teams that are not as strong overall it would be a nice opportunity to shine .

There is still bragging rites to winning. You don't see football teams like Louisville Central wanting to bump up to play Trinity for state. They are champions of there school size, and its prestigious. You don't devalue it because they didn't play "big" schools

Central has wanted to play Trinity in football in the past; Trinity would have none of it. Instead, Central has to "settle" for playing St. X every year -- and going toe to toe with them.

People dont hold a 3-A championship in as high a regard as a 6-A championship (yeah the guys at Central feel good), its like waving a banner for a NIT championship vs a NCAA championship. Same thing will happen with duals, unfortunately for a few of the teams who fall into the little school format who might have actually had a chance to win at the big team format. No bumping up, thats like Bellarmine winning a D-2 mens basketball championship and thinking they should be allowed to play in the NCAA D-1 tournament, just doesnt work like that. And just wondering how you feel Central is "settling" as you say, for St. X, when they cant even beat them?

I say settling because Trinity will not schedule Central in football. And notice I never said Central has beaten X, just that they've gone toe to toe with them.

I really do not know why our football team got pulled into this discussion. It could open up a can of worms that nobody wants to admit. Regardless of Central not beating X which the most recent games have been close, we do have 5 of the past 6 3A championships and will hopefully make it a sixth on Friday. Which is a whole lot more than X could say because they can't get past that big brother. I would also like to point out those same NIT champs also presently has two presently plaing in the NFL, which is more than most teams around can say. Nobody wants to be the school that loses to those Yellowjackets so they dodge us.

The reason I brought it up was that just because they are 3a, it doesn't devalue there championship. They are an awesome team and can play at any level , but they happen to be 3a. My argument is that say union wins small school title, they are like central. They are a champion and can compete with big schools, but they just happen to be small. The other thing is, I don't feel central has to beat a stx or trinity to be a true champion, they have proven to be great, so why does the small school in wrestling have to beat a big school to have a true champion?

I understood the initial comment but then it started going downhill.

The reason I brought it up was that just because they are 3a, it doesn't devalue there championship. They are an awesome team and can play at any level , but they happen to be 3a. My argument is that say union wins small school title, they are like central. They are a champion and can compete with big schools, but they just happen to be small. The other thing is, I don't feel central has to beat a stx or trinity to be a true champion, they have proven to be great, so why does the small school in wrestling have to beat a big school to have a true champion?

Without looking it up how many people do you think can name the 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A, and/or 5A champions from last year? How many would know who won the NIT vs knowing UK won the NCAA? In my 'opinion' I think quite a few more would be able to tell you who won the 6A championship than the other five combined. So in my 'opinion' it does devalue the championships of the littles vs the bigs. Believe me Mr. Founder having been around the old Optimist league and the MLYA/Ali League for many years, I know several of the players from your team, and know they wear their rings with pride so good luck to them this weekend. But my point wasnt about football, or basketball or any particular high school, but more so about the fact that schools like Union or Larue who may have a legitimate shot at beating any contendor out there will in the eyes of 'some' only be "The Little Champion". So ultimately my point is that hey maybe some people consider the other championships as legitimate as any other but best believe there are just as many who wouldnt. In my opinion. So being allowed to have and express an opinion I would say I'm not a fan of the idea. Never meant to offend anyone or their program but you know what they say about opinions, they are like _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ and everyone has one. And unfortunately I may come off like one to some people every so often. But hey its a forum so feel free to express yourself.

In my opinion you have to beat the best to be the best. I am not a fan of the new state duals format. I remember what an honor it was to wrestle against the best throughout the state and what joy I felt personally when I weighed in at state duals to be on the official roster as an underclassman. That told me my coach felt I was able to wrestle with the best teams in the state as a JV wrestler. It felt great beating those big schools that had a lot more to pull from. Just my opinion as it is.

Each team busts their butt to get to state duals. It is nice to allow other teams the opportunity to compete, but I think it lowers the overall competition. There are several schools big and small that cannot field a complete roster. If you truly wanted to make it about participation it needs to be the same as it has been, especially with the new alignment. If it is all about using stats from participation, why wouldn't we keep it the same as it has been in years passed?

Once again just my opinion. I have in no way looked at the stats as many others have, but I feel strongly that we are taking away a prestigious event from our state. I remember looking in the stands in years past to see community members that made it to two events: State Duals and State Tourney. They traveled to watch their hometown team compete against the very best, splitting the state duals does not allow for the very best teams to go against each other.

Good luck to each and every team and may everyone's team and individual goals come to fruition.

I did a little research on this; what I found is that in Indiana, there are now 3 classes. However, the schools within those classes have the option of bumping up to compete at the state tournament. Thus far, Mater Dei is the only team that has taken advantage of that option. The idea of offering up the option to compete in large schools would be congruent with our state's current views on middle school participants. If a student-athlete is able to compete at the high school level when while still in middle school, we afford them the option to seek a competition level more suitable for their skill-set. I have no problem with breaking it into two divisions, so long as the right to seek a fitting competition level is no infringed upon.

In addition, we have a couple open dates to play with, and would love to set up a dual with a powerhouse "Large" school team... I would go as far as to offer up the night before state duals; assuming that there is a Louisville area school that would be willing to host said dual. Anyone interested?

Correct me if Im wrong, but didnt Indiana eliminate their state duals and is now only sticking to the state tournament format?

I believe they still have it, but it is a post season event, that follows the state tournament by a week or two.

I think that format is strange. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they're one of the only states who do things that way.

Info about Indiana's State Duals....

http://indianamat.com/messageboard/index.php/topic,23145.0.html

ok my 1/2 cent because thats all its worth.

I like the idea of big and small school state duals. It will allow some of the smaller schools to attend the state duals that would never have a chance otherwise. I don't know but since I am in Nky who are considered the small schools in Nky.

However i believe that the small schools should be allowed to choose to move up. The comment about then you need to allow the big to schools to move down is silly. We don't allow high school kids to move down to middle school state.

The state duals has never been a big event for most schools. You will never get teams to travel to the state duals tourny if their team does not qualify, it is to far for most. If you shut down the season for this event it would be very bad for wrestling in general and the attendance of the state duals may rise a little but only the close by teams would send spectators. It's just not that big of a deal and never will be unless you make it officially the team that wins the title and not keep team score at the individual state tourney.

The whole idea is to allow the smaller schools more opportunity and to expand wrestling in the smaller schools. If one or two small schools move up then that will allow one or two more schools to attend the duals tourney in the small school catagory.

If they are going to bump out a big school tough, as some on here have said "Get better" so that the small schools don't beat you.

As for who won 6A football and such. I believe if Trinity did not win 6A on a regular basis than many would not know who won 6A either. I'm sure many people know Highlands are state champions many times also.

GOO,

I disagree with alot of what you say, but not this time. I agree completely.

Ok, say you let schools bump up, how would it work. If they bump up, it makes more teams in big school pull, which complicates things. How would you seed them into the big school pool? Would it be fair to put them higher then a big school?How many do you allow to bump up? If they bump, does another small school take their spot? Do you scratch a big team out if a small school that's better bumps up? when do you decide when to bump? If you let them wait till after sectionals, could they not decide to bump up based on maybe having a better shot at winning there, depending on teams that year. I think there is just a lot of things people don't think about. It's not just as easy as saying, ok you can bump up.

OK wow calm down .

1st off to answer most of your questions a small school would need to decide if they are going to move up prior to the sectional tourney, or however your district decides who goes.

That way they compete as a large school in thier sectional tourney (or whatever your region is calling it).

I thought that was easily solved and figured everyone would see it that way. A simple solution. (coachteater your overthinking the situation).

refdad you disagree with a lot of what I say. Awww you hurt my feelings. .

Or maybe your just moving to the dark side. "Refdaaaad IIIMMM your Faatthher".

I do get serious on here sometimes, but I keep it to a minimum because its not very fun.

GOO out.

I'll be quick. I disagree with a BIG SCHOOL/small school State Duals. If someone wants to host an all A Duals Tournament, that's fine. GOO, I have to say, most of the time I AGREE with you, but I'll have to respectfully disagree this time. State Duals has always been the tournament I look forward to most. Not only is this a test of our wrestlers' abilities, it is also a test of our coaches skill. If a coach doesn't know how to "play the game" his team won't have a shot. This is where we see the best of a program, from all sides. Just my opinion though.

Don't get me wrong, I can see both sides. It's just if the powers that be feel this will grow wrestling, I'm for it.

And goo, yes that would work, but.....what if you coach the big school team that took 3rd? How upset would be that a small bumped you out of going to state duals? Just a thought.

I think all the differences in opinion will make for an exciting event this year

I'm sure many people know Highlands are state champions many times also.

Maybe in NKY but I wouldnt think so much elsewhere in the state, after all you are in NKY which is a good reason as to why you would. But I guess the same theory could go against myself since I live in Louisville which has been most dominant when it comes to the larger class of state football championships.

Not only is this a test of our wrestlers' abilities, it is also a test of our coaches skill. If a coach doesn't know how to "play the game" his team won't have a shot. This is where we see the best of a program, from all sides. Just my opinion though.

As per my name. I am old school here. I don't like "playing the game", I prefer set your line up and go. I don't really care how good teh coach is about moving people around. I always think it was silly seeing the Larue caoches waiting for the other team to send someone forward then looking at who is being sent up and then deciding who to send out. During my short career as a head coach I set my dual team and stood with it. I even won a dual tourney they way.

I remember going against Larue one year and they were waiting for me to send my guy out. I had blanks in the next two weight classes and were waiting for them to send out so I could see if they had anyone, (since I didn't have there line up), so i could get my wrestler a match. Finally I told him I'll forfiet the dual win if you want, I don't care about dual wins I just want my wrestlers to get matches. But he forfieted to my wrestler to get the next two forfiet to garantee the win then forfieted the next 4 matches. I was so mad because my wrestlers didn't get matches for that dual. (no this was not state duals)

How upset would be that a small bumped you out of going to state duals?

They sould be no more mad than if a big school knocked them out. Or a high school kid getting knocked out of state by a middle school kid that bumped up.