Youth Holiday Classic

December 16th

Johnson Central High School - Paintsville, KY

Ages 4-15

$15 per wrestler

See attached flyer and registration form for more info

Youth.Holiday.Classic1.doc

I will post tonight on the Kentucky Youth Wrestling Facebook page. Glad to see a tournament that will actually make kids weigh in and wrestle their true weigth. Maybe this can spread someday across the state. Wait, wait, wait.....Here come the haters that think letting kids and coaches lie about weight is actually growing the sport of wrestling.

This is the way it should be. Maybe our state tournament will start doing this.

Also you can call or email me for more information. Phone # 606-297-8480. email: [email protected]. All come out and hit this tourney. Expecting kids from WV and OH as well. Should be a good tourney.

Had to modify the first post. Starting times were wrong.

Sorry for any inconvenience.

The weigh-ins will be from 12-1

I will post tonight on the Kentucky Youth Wrestling Facebook page. Glad to see a tournament that will actually make kids weigh in and wrestle their true weigth. Maybe this can spread someday across the state. Wait, wait, wait.....Here come the haters that think letting kids and coaches lie about weight is actually growing the sport of wrestling.

hopefully it can spread across the state

I would love for the state tournament to be ran like WV tourney. 16 man bracket with the top 8 seeded. Do weigh class like the TOC classes. 3lb increments. I think our state tourney is watered down a bit right now. I know last year they ran out of the medals with the wrestle on them and had to give out other medals that was not up to par for a state tourney. My son was very disappointed after he won state and got that terrible medal.

I will post tonight on the Kentucky Youth Wrestling Facebook page. Glad to see a tournament that will actually make kids weigh in and wrestle their true weigth. Maybe this can spread someday across the state. Wait, wait, wait.....Here come the haters that think letting kids and coaches lie about weight is actually growing the sport of wrestling.

That's a pretty bold accusation. What evidence do you have where a coach lied about a weigh in?

That's a pretty bold accusation. What evidence do you have where a coach lied about a weigh in?

Last year at a tournament when I challenged a kid and he was 15 pounds over the weight he stated. Stood on the scales and there it was, and then they admitted - because the facts were there. Ryle Raider tournament DQ'd a kid today because of a challenge and overweight - could have been prevented with a scale. Why do you think tournaments that run a Madison Weight System have a challenge rule? The same reason that McDonalds has a warning on the cup that the coffee is hot. because there are people out there that don't use common sense and do the right thing.

Are you really going to say that it does not happen? I guess Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa were innocent. No athlete used steroids. Ohio State and USC should not have had sanctions, because nobody cheats when given an opportunity. Not a bold statement, a fact that it happens and the only reason for not weighing kids in, even if using a 10% rule is to protect those that want the ability to cheat.

Tournament today at Raider Youth, which stated 10% rule is in effect had a weight class that was 43 to 49. Break out your calculator boys and girls, but that is 15%. We can't even run a tournament in this state where we follow our own rules.

Again - protect your beliefs, but open your mind and see the facts. Nobody claimed it was you, but don't turn a blind eye on the fact that it happens. But are you one of the haters that I think not doing weigh-ins is actually growing the sport - not weight classes, but doing weigh-ins?

Last year at a tournament when I challenged a kid and he was 15 pounds over the weight he stated. Stood on the scales and there it was, and then they admitted - because the facts were there. Ryle Raider tournament DQ'd a kid today because of a challenge and overweight - could have been prevented with a scale. Why do you think tournaments that run a Madison Weight System have a challenge rule? The same reason that McDonalds has a warning on the cup that the coffee is hot. because there are people out there that don't use common sense and do the right thing.

Are you really going to say that it does not happen? I guess Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa were innocent. No athlete used steroids. Ohio State and USC should not have had sanctions, because nobody cheats when given an opportunity. Not a bold statement, a fact that it happens and the only reason for not weighing kids in, even if using a 10% rule is to protect those that want the ability to cheat.

Tournament today at Raider Youth, which stated 10% rule is in effect had a weight class that was 43 to 49. Break out your calculator boys and girls, but that is 15%. We can't even run a tournament in this state where we follow our own rules.

Again - protect your beliefs, but open your mind and see the facts. Nobody claimed it was you, but don't turn a blind eye on the fact that it happens. But are you one of the haters that I think not doing weigh-ins is actually growing the sport - not weight classes, but doing weigh-ins?

Show me where I said it didn't happen. I simply asked you to provide some evidence when you make such a claim on a public forum. I KNOW this happens and I think its ridiculous. However, I will remind you that this doesn't just happen in Kentucky or just at the youth level. I don't know if they still do it this way or not, but there are many college tournaments where weigh-ins were sent in and done at your school, by your coach. I assure you that there were many "inaccuracies".

JW, you should have all the facts before you start slinging mud about our tournament. The LONE bracket that was outside the 10% rule (out of 70 brackets) was fixed. By the way, the 43 lber, was my wrestler and his parents had no problem w/ him staying, but I moved him anyways.

And yes, we did have a challenge from a parent. The kid weight 1.6 lbs heavier than the weight they submitted (w/ a singlet, socks, and knee pads on) which put him w/in 10% of the wrestler challenging him..but outside the lowest kid in his weight class. To avoid confrontation, I moved him out of the bracket and gave him a few exhibitions.

There are too many reasons why at the youth level we use the 10% rule. This has been discussed over and over and over and..... Here is some common sense, if you don't like it, don't attend tournaments that use that format.

MLEE - I enjoyed your tournament and posted a positive note about it on the Kentucky Youth Wrestling Forum. I think you ran a good tournament.

A forum where opinions are allowed and should be expressed.

I don't think the 10% rule is bad if it is controlled. I have been to many madison weight system tournaments all over the country and they work well, they just have the kids weigh in when they get there. There are many reasons for this also - it ensures the weights are correct, it ensures that there are not any brackets with scratches (because every kid there checked in at the scale).

You can and have given good debate about weight classes and weight loss, I still hold my opinion, but you can't give any good reason for not weighing kids in at a tournament except it is easier on the tournament director.

Again - here on the Forum - your tournament ran well and I was glad that I attended. No mud slung as you verified what I posted by saying there was a kid outside of the 10% and there was a 15% bracket instead of 10%.

(And yes we had this same debate last year that got you upset). You will still hold and post your opinions and I will hold and post mine. Nothing personal, just business.

Show me where I said it didn't happen. I simply asked you to provide some evidence when you make such a claim on a public forum. I KNOW this happens and I think its ridiculous. However, I will remind you that this doesn't just happen in Kentucky or just at the youth level. I don't know if they still do it this way or not, but there are many college tournaments where weigh-ins were sent in and done at your school, by your coach. I assure you that there were many "inaccuracies".

If you KNOW it happens and you think it is ridculous - help make it better instead of supporting the "Its the way we've always done it" attitude. Thanks for the reminder - but Kentucky is what you and I and the other coaches that care can influence and try to improve on - not the CYWL or whereever else you want to point to. I feel pretty positive that College Wrestling has weigh-ins on site, maybe intramural teams let you send it weights, but the Big 10 D1 has not done satellite weigh-ins, Cael Sanderson is not going to take Terry Brands word on it when it comes down to a Big 10 Championship, and they won't have a 10% rule next olympics.

Guys this was way too easy... I said wait, wait, wait, here comes the haters and the same two people as always are posting right away. Anyways, this got side tracked way too easy - this forum is about the Youth Holiday Classic.

JW,

I wrestled D1 and attended many early season tournaments where we did not weigh in on site. These tournaments were represented by almost every major conference in D1 including the Big 10. That was 10 years ago and things may have changed, but it was common then.

There is a MAJOR benefit to not having weigh ins the day of a tournament other than helping the tournament director that you are overlooking: time. Nothing turns families off from our sport more than having to spend all day at a tournament to watch their kid go two and out. We attend a few tournaments where the on-site weigh ins are done and there are always way more problems with brackets and the tournament finishes hours later. You can counter this by just having smaller tournaments, but that limits the competition and the fund raising opportunities of the tournament.

We had over 550 kids wrestle yesterday with very little problems with the brackets, great competition, finished on time, and were able to raise money for our program. It was an overwhelming success. You think we should change that formula because of a couple of minor issues? I suggest you set up and run a tournament your way and prove to the rest of us that what we're doing doesn't work.

It's easy to come on here and critique every little issue you have, you are pretty good at that, it's much harder to actually do it.

If you KNOW it happens and you think it is ridculous - help make it better instead of supporting the "Its the way we've always done it" attitude. Thanks for the reminder - but Kentucky is what you and I and the other coaches that care can influence and try to improve on - not the CYWL or whereever else you want to point to. I feel pretty positive that College Wrestling has weigh-ins on site, maybe intramural teams let you send it weights, but the Big 10 D1 has not done satellite weigh-ins, Cael Sanderson is not going to take Terry Brands word on it when it comes down to a Big 10 Championship, and they won't have a 10% rule next olympics.

Guys this was way too easy... I said wait, wait, wait, here comes the haters and the same two people as always are posting right away. Anyways, this got side tracked way too easy - this forum is about the Youth Holiday Classic.

"Haters"? Go look in a mirror. You are the only one on here criticizing...lol. When we defend ourselves you claim we are haters and "I should be able to post an opinion". All I see from you is "hating".

"Haters"? Go look in a mirror. You are the only one on here criticizing...lol. When we defend ourselves you claim we are haters and "I should be able to post an opinion". All I see from you is "hating". The people you are talking to have ran tournaments your way and prefer to run them differently. As you say, we just have a difference of opinion and its just business.

Raider - please come up with another example other than college coaches knowingly sending in inaccuracies. I think we can all agree this is not something we want our coaches to emulate or the example we want to set for our kids. Just because there were only a few visible issues doesn't mean others didn't exist. Most coaches just show up and go with the flow and won't cause any waves or challenge anything. Well at least until they step in the corner. Having a kid step on the scale as they check in is pretty simple. And I just attended an event run by jw last month. Good tournament. And we weighed in when we got there.

Raider - please come up with another example other than college coaches knowingly sending in inaccuracies. I think we can all agree this is not something we want our coaches to emulate or the example we want to set for our kids. Just because there were only a few visible issues doesn't mean others didn't exist. Most coaches just show up and go with the flow and won't cause any waves or challenge anything. Well at least until they step in the corner. Having a kid step on the scale as they check in is pretty simple. And I just attended an event run by jw last month. Good tournament. And we weighed in when we got there.

Come up with another example of what? I'm not saying we should never weigh in. I wish we could trust all the teams 100% of the time, but I know we can't which I previously stated. We had 550 kids wrestle yesterday, started at 9:00 and finished at 4:30 with very little issues. That's hard to do (not impossible) with weigh ins. If you can do it, go for it. If you don't like the way we run our tournament, don't show up. It's not a qualifying event, so you don't have to come. However, it's a great tournament with great competition and the feedback we always get is overwhelmingly positive.

Raider - please come up with another example other than college coaches knowingly sending in inaccuracies. I think we can all agree this is not something we want our coaches to emulate or the example we want to set for our kids. Just because there were only a few visible issues doesn't mean others didn't exist. Most coaches just show up and go with the flow and won't cause any waves or challenge anything. Well at least until they step in the corner. Having a kid step on the scale as they check in is pretty simple. And I just attended an event run by jw last month. Good tournament. And we weighed in when we got there.

We did not attend JW's tournament, but if he was able to put on a tournament with 550 kids, with weigh ins, weight classes, have it run smoothly with good distribution of participants per weight, and have it done by 4:30, then he has my applause.

I didn't show up. No big deal. You used the college example as some sort of justification for not weighing in at the event. As usual you just want to provide rude comments whenever someone suggests there might be a better way to do something. To jw credit he constantly asked for feedback at his event and wants to see it continue to improve and acknowledges that others just might have something of value to say.

I didn't show up. No big deal. You used the college example as some sort of justification for not weighing in at the event. As usual you just want to provide rude comments whenever someone suggests there might be a better way to do something. To jw credit he constantly asked for feedback at his event and wants to see it continue to improve and acknowledges that others just might have something of value to say.

Poobah is back. Where was I rude? JW attacked members of this state that don't do things HIS way first. Then he called those who disagree with him "haters" before I said a word. Then he defended his comments by saying this is a public forum and he's entitled to his opinion....I actually agree with that! I NEVER justified coaches or wrestlers cheating during satellite weigh ins. I hate when people do it and acknowledged I know it goes on. I only brought up that it happens in college and in other states because JW acted as if this is only a problem in our state.

You sure do have it out for me Ranger. Maybe, you are still bitter over me beating you at state when I was an eighth grader and you were a junior. Either way, I could care less about what you or JW think about the way we run our program or tournaments.

On every level of wrestling, except youth, we weigh in, and have weight classes. Seems a little silly that we wouldn't hold our youth to the same standard. What's next? The YMCA method of no losers, we are all winners, everyone gets a trophy. Horse crap!

On every level of wrestling, except youth, we weigh in, and have weight classes. Seems a little silly that we wouldn't hold our youth to the same standard. What's next? The YMCA method of no losers, we are all winners, everyone gets a trophy. Horse crap!

We do weigh in for every tournament. We just do it a day or two before at our practice. The weights are then sent to the tournament directors. We are very accurate, some others aren't.

Thanks JW, and sorry if I misunderstood your comment. I'm glad you guys made it up.

Satellite weigh ins are flawed. Variances in different scales, fudged weights, etc. all can contribute to discrepancies. We only do it for logistic reasons. There is no way I'm weighing in over 500 kids THEN generating 70+ brackets the day of a one day tournament. Too stressful!

With that said, there are a few CYW tournaments that do weigh in the day of, which tends to discourage cheating. It would be pretty embarrassing to be the coach who had kids wrestling 70 lbs all year show up at 75+.

Also, the term "true weight" is being tossed around here. I'd argue the 10% rule promotes kids to wrestle their natural weight more so than set weight classes. I have documented evidence of this. Just look no further than the weights of those who wrestle both MS and Youth. I've seen 5 lb swings from kids weights from MS tournaments to Youth State tournament. There is only one explanation for this, weight cutting. If a kid drops 5 lbs to make a set weight class, is he wrestling his true weight?

I appreciate the fact that no matter what side of the fence anyone is on, the idea of promoting the growth of the sport is the main agenda. Kentucky has grown leaps and bounds since my day of competing (although I think my generation had a little harder work ethic at times). Lol! Just a little joke parents, don't string me up. Anyway, I believe we all want what is best for the sport, and each side will have to give a little. These are growing pains. These are good problems to have. I believe that before long, we will have to make the youth regional tournament a true qualifying tournament for State. At some point it will just get to big and disorganized for us to continue the same old format. Once again, if we work together, we will achieve our goal of growing the greatest of all sports....WRESTLING!!

It would be great if someone would try this. Have club weigh ins like we do now and put the wrestlers into true weight classes. If you do this and spot check 10% of the wrestlers it might make a lot more people happy. A 16 man bracket would also be a nice touch.

We've been to very large youth tournaments in other states that ran very smoothly and had weigh ins. Wrestlers weigh in at practice, register on track wrestling and weigh in again just before the tournament. There is a rebracketing fee for kids who don't make weight. The fee is usually double the tournament fee which strongly discourages people from fudging anything.

Ok so who's coming to the JC touney? Should be a good one.

Poobah didn't go anywhere. I try to be a productive part of our wrestling community and participate here apart from just arguing with others as you seem to enjoy. Thanks mlee for showing at least one of you can have an adult discussion with someone on this site.

Raider I will give you all the credit for 1991. I'm not living in the 90s myself. I prefer the present. Speaking of the present. How many middle school teams in Boone co are better today than they were when you "took over" at raiders. I would venture to say about ZERO.

Raidercoach, just went back and read previous posts a little closer. As the ESPN segment says, " C'MON MAN!" Listen, I can't even pin point who u are, but we all probably have wins/losses to other coaches on here. I can go back and pick at coaches I whooped, but what good is that? It's obvious that u and Ranger are on 2 different pages, but does anyone really remember or care what happend back in the day? I'm not in the great war of the Northern KY schools, but its obvious to the rest of the state that all of u guys (in NKY) are doing it, and doing it very effectively. Let's just ALL work together to figure out the best avenue for our kids.

Ranger, I've got nothing but mad respect for you and your middle school program. I'm glad that Kentucky has an ambassador of the sport like you. You don't know who I am by my screen name, but you know who I am. You and I have been on the opposite side of issues and opposing Coaches. At the end of the day, wrestling in Kentucky is better off because of the contributions that u have made. That being said, I'm still going to strive to catch up to you and your program again, then try to beat you. Lol! As a wise man once said, don't mistake my kindness for weakness.

Iwin I'm with you 100%. We need more coaches thinking that way. I love to see teams rise up and challenge the established programs (that's why I hate big school small school state duals). And I'll do my part to help any kid in any program. I spent time training more kids outside of my team this summer than on my team. In fact just yesterday I had a raider parent approach me in the stands and shake my hand and show his appreciation for working with his son as we prepared for team ky. I know that raising the bar for everyone will only help my kids to reach their highest goals.

IWIN, I don't know who you are, but I agree with you. Wrestling in this state has grown so much in the past 15+ years, it amazes me. I'm glad we have as many coaches that we do trying to make this sport better.

I believe that most are in it for the right reason. MLEE has done some very good things with the Raider program. When he first took over, I remember talking with him about the direction he wanted to take that program. It good to have change, or atleast give it a try. If it doesn't work out, then you can always fall back on what was working before.

Raidercoach, I know you mean well. When someone makes a suggestion or gives an opinion,.....it is just that. Doesn't mean you have to listen to it or do what they say. It's kind of like what I tell my wrestlers when they go to different camps or train under different coaches in the off season, "take what you like, what works for you and the rest you can throw out the door and move on from it".

I've had many battles back in the day with many coaches on here regarding wrestling each other. Heck me and Ranger have had a few run ins. But today, I have a great deal of respect for him. We have become good friends and have spent crazy amount of hours in the off season training / working with kids from many different programs and traveling to get deal of tournaments together. When we are coaching against each other, sure we both want to win. Thats what its all about people. However the bigger picture "IN MY OPINION" is building relationships, making our sport grow and help guide these young men.

Good points tbird, oh, bearcat coach. Enough arguing and at least let this thread focus on the right topic (sorry I contributed to sidetracking it). Who is planning to attend this event? Any teams/clubs traveling down or over to it?

Poobah didn't go anywhere. I try to be a productive part of our wrestling community and participate here apart from just arguing with others as you seem to enjoy. Thanks mlee for showing at least one of you can have an adult discussion with someone on this site.

Raider I will give you all the credit for 1991. I'm not living in the 90s myself. I prefer the present. Speaking of the present. How many middle school teams in Boone co are better today than they were when you "took over" at raiders. I would venture to say about ZERO.

Lets back up here for a bit. You guys claim to encourage "adult conversation" on this site and are clearly defending JW's comments about how we ran our tournament. If you take the time to go back to the beginning of these posts and read JW's comments, he admitted that he was baiting us into this debate. He went out of his way to criticize the way we run our tournament on the eve of our event that we put a TON of work into. Then he came back and pointed out the only two negative incidents he could muster up that occured at our tournament. For the record, he pointed out two incidents that we actually corrected. Every tournament has problems that arise that need to be corrected regardless of format. JW and I have gone back and forth on these boards over these same topics in the past, we have a history.....he knew he was picking a fight over these issues and picked a terrible time to do it.

Ranger, you only call JW's post "adult conversation" because you happen to agree with his position on these topics. You and him have clearly made your case that you don't like the way the youth association was being ran. You are on record for having personal issues with Raider Youth. You guys have eliminated the team scoring at state, eliminated middle school state placers from participating in the youth state tournament, and have proposed changes to 10% rule. I am not the one making changes to the association by claiming to know more than the people who set up the initial by-laws....you guys are. I happen to strongly believe in the by-laws that we had because they worked. The only proof you need is the growth numbers. I personally have seen our youth state tournament grow from 150 kids to over 1000. It baffles me that anyone would try to make such drastic changes to our association with so much growth on record. We warned you over the summer that there will be negative consequences of making such changes and you guys decided to do it anyway. Here is my prediction: this will be the first year we see a decline in participants at the youth state tournament since it began.

To answer your question about middle schools in Boone County. I only coach at the youth level....don't know where that question came from. That would be like me asking you how many college teams have you helped. You don't coach in college just like I don't coach in middle school...dumb question. I volunteer as much time as I can, but have NO kids that wrestle since I have two daughters. I'd challenge you to find ONE post I've ever made on this site where I challenged anyone's efforts or impact as a coach. I have the utmost respect for everyone who coaches wrestling. I only volunteer to help give back to the sport that I love and to help my brother. The President of our association should be grateful to have volunteers like me instead of trying to compare resumes.

My comment to you about our match in 1991 was tongue in cheek. I only brought it up because it is about the only explanation I can come up with as to why you always go out of your way to take the other side of everything I have an opinion on. Face to face, I've always found you quite nice and reserved. On these boards, you turn into a know-it-all message board bully. Regardless, I really don't care what you think. I don't coach for the politics...I coach to help kids and because I love being on the mat. I have ZERO desire to be involved with the politics of running the associations. The thought of sitting in a room with you, JW, and everyone else to defend our existing by-laws from being torn apart and revamped into the way things were 20 years ago makes my stomach hurt just thinking about it. I couldn't think of something else I'd like less to do. So you guys can change everything to the way they do it in West Virginia, but be prepared to defend the decline of participation when it happens.

So deciding to eliminate team scores in September 2012 will result in a participation decline in feb 2013? Please explain that one?

You have brought up resumes on a few occasions. And my point is the work you do at the youth level should have a direct impact at the middle school level.

No problem with raiders. Had hrs of nice conversation with coach Ruschell this weekend and have a very friendly relationship with plenty of folks in union. I've been on the opposite side of debates with Matt and we respectfully agree to disagree. For some reason you can't do that.

And jw and I have been on opposite sides as well on a few items. It happens. Yes we happen to agree on this. I appreciate the mutual respect with him more than I care about his position on topics.

On the bylaws. Anyone who believes a set of bylaws for a new youth organization can be created and never revised to allow for continual growth and development is only focused inward. The bylaws are there to guide the vision and mission of the state as a whole and not just your program or my program. It's not about trying to get 3000 kids in alltech

So deciding to eliminate team scores in September 2012 will result in a participation decline in feb 2013? Please explain that one?

You have brought up resumes on a few occasions. And my point is the work you do at the youth level should have a direct impact at the middle school level.

No problem with raiders. Had hrs of nice conversation with coach Ruschell this weekend and have a very friendly relationship with plenty of folks in union. I've been on the opposite side of debates with Matt and we respectfully agree to disagree. For some reason you can't do that.

And jw and I have been on opposite sides as well on a few items. It happens. Yes we happen to agree on this. I appreciate the mutual respect with him more than I care about his position on topics.

On the bylaws. Anyone who believes a set of bylaws for a new youth organization can be created and never revised to allow for continual growth and development is only focused inward. The bylaws are there to guide the vision and mission of the state as a whole and not just your program or my program. It's not about trying to get 3000 kids in alltech

Well, eliminating team scores AND preventing kids who place in middle school to participate in youth will for sure lower participation and competition. You have eliminated the incentive for coaches to get new kids out, don't know why you can't understand that. My brother has a pipeline of kids through coaching football. Do you think he was as motivated to get an extra 10-15 new kids out as he was before? I know he wasn't because he told me so.

I'm having a hard time following your logic on youth to middle school. Are you suggesting that the kids that come through Raider youth have not been successful in middle school? If so, you are out of your mind. There were more middle school state champs just last year that came through Raider youth than CC. I'm certainly not taking all the credit for those kids like apparently you are, but our program has produced many great middle school wrestlers. You just have the luxury of having almost all of CC youth kids going to CC middle. We don't have that in Boone County.

You are on record for having issues with our program. If you'd like to revisit it with me, I'd be glad to refresh your memory. I only bring it up because to me, it shows where your head is when you make decisions that you know we don't agree with.

As far as respectfully disagreeing, I feel thats all I have done. I haven't personally attacked your success as a coach or program as you have with me and our program. I'm only questioning your policy. I called out your resume once because you are the one acting as if you know more than everyone else. If I went in and started tearing up by-laws, I'd expect someone to check my credentials.

What you have done to the by-laws are a little more than revisions. You are revamping the core ideas that were put together to promote growth. You don't want 3000 kids in Alltech, thats fine. But, what you have done has ensured that we will have less participants than last year at state, which lowered the overall competition and eliminated a motivator for coaches to up their numbers, while pissing off the largest youth team in the state to the point where we've considered leaving KY for CYW.

So deciding to eliminate team scores in September 2012 will result in a participation decline in feb 2013? Please explain that one?

You have brought up resumes on a few occasions. And my point is the work you do at the youth level should have a direct impact at the middle school level.

No problem with raiders. Had hrs of nice conversation with coach Ruschell this weekend and have a very friendly relationship with plenty of folks in union. I've been on the opposite side of debates with Matt and we respectfully agree to disagree. For some reason you can't do that.

And jw and I have been on opposite sides as well on a few items. It happens. Yes we happen to agree on this. I appreciate the mutual respect with him more than I care about his position on topics.

On the bylaws. Anyone who believes a set of bylaws for a new youth organization can be created and never revised to allow for continual growth and development is only focused inward. The bylaws are there to guide the vision and mission of the state as a whole and not just your program or my program. It's not about trying to get 3000 kids in alltech

Here was just last years results at middle school state from past Raider Youth kids:

4 Champs

4 Runners-Up

1 4th Place

1 5th Place

7 more qualifiers

Consider yourself lucky those kids didn't go to one middle school, because I'm pretty sure the aforementioned team would have taken home your precious middle school title. For the record, I'm not claiming all the credit for these kids like you are, but to act as if Raider Youth haven't had success at middle school is asinine.

Go back read my post. TODAY. Yes Stan Martin sent a ton of great wrestlers to the middle school ranks in the past. And check your numbers again. We had 4 state champs at cc. I give those 4 boys all the credit. They worked hard to earn it. 3 of them left a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in my driveway and the football stadium and places like the graham wrestling room. And to cry because they don't all go to one school is ludicrous. You can't have it both ways. You pull them in from all over they will end up at different schools.

And did you really just say that your brother chose to not recruit as much just because he couldn't bring home a trophy? Wow. I don't see that from Matt. If that is true, and you made the statement not me or jw, it says a lot.

Wow..a lot of action in here today.

Ranger, I know Raidercoach isn't taking anything away from your team. They are a great group of kids. But, I've read a couple posts you've made implying the Raider Youth program hasn't generated MS results which, as Raidercoach pointed out, is just untrue. You're not the only one. We've heard it before. "numbers, numbers, numbers"

For the record, before Stan there were the Ashworth's and others who did a pretty good job themselves starting the Raider Youth Club and building champions (Ruschells, Reid, Peace, Osborne to name a few). Stan did his job and we're trying to do ours. You do know C.C. had a pretty good tradition before you showed up, correct?

And as far as "pulling them from all over"...once again, not really true. Schools and programs have sprung up all around our area (unlike in C.C.) and kids just have more options. I think it is great. It is a sign of growth which is what our sport needs. Imagine how good Cuyahoga County High School would be (if it existed) and there were no other teams in the county!!

And did you really just say that your brother chose to not recruit as much just because he couldn't bring home a trophy? Wow. I don't see that from Matt. If that is true, and you made the statement not me or jw, it says a lot.

What does it say?

Our kids want to win a team state championship just like every team at all levels. As a coach, it is my job to help them reach their goals. The old team scoring system (by design) encouraged teams to bring a lot of kids. In order to beat the other top clubs in the state, you need to have a lot of good kids; therefore, we aggressively recruited. When the YMCA soccer moms took over, you removed the incentive to produce the #'s. How is this so different than you wrestling year round w/ your kids w/ "a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in my driveway and the football stadium and places like the graham wrestling room?"

The association grossly underestimated the competitive spirit of the youth coaches. The competitiveness is what helped push the bar higher and it was removed.

I am just giving my opinion and some experiences that our team has had the past couple of years. I am not taking sides or trying to cause more problems, just givimg our experience with weigh ins. We are located in southern KY and wrestle on saturdays in TN. The reason for this is because most KY youth tournaments are on sundays and start in the afternoon. The largest and best tournaments for the most part are ran by teams in NKY or the Louisville area. I am not saying they are the only good tournaments, so please do not take offense. The problem we have with this is that it is usually around a three hour drive and if any of you have an 8 year old like mine that is often a terror in the morning you realize the problem. It is a long day and a longer monday morning. Im not asking or complaining for change, i realize that these tournaments are on sundays for logistics and scheduling and i am just explaining why we wrestle in TN. We would prefer to wrestle Ky tournaments, but is just to hard on our parents and kids to make the trips on sundays.

That being said, we wrestle in TN and have to weigh in at every tournament. We are reguired to be registered by thursday night before the tournament by division and weight class. This is through trackwrestling and the brackets are in the computer when we arrive for the weigh ins. If a wrestler busts weight there is a rebracketing fee of usually $20.00 on top of the registration fee. We weigh in on thursday night at practice and then register the appropriate weight class. This is the part where some people are going to say this leads to cutting in the youth ranks. We DO NOT CUT WEIGHT. I know there are some that do just as there are coaches and parents that have kids cut with the 10% tournaments. Another topic. Some are now going to say they are small tournaments. The smallest we went to last year had a little over 500 kids. There are usually around 800 kids. Some tournaments are ran better than others and can take some time to get started, but most are started within a half an hour of posted time. They also have a belt series that is ran during the season. Each region host a tournament that the kids can accumalate points toward the belt. These tournaments have drawn over a thousand participants.

Again I am not trying to throw gas on the fire just giving some background and info. Weigh ins can work and I dont believe will hurt the numbers that coaches and volunteers in Ky have worked so hard to grow. I applaud all of you for the work that you all have done. My son is 8 and this is his 3rd season and cant get enough of the sport. He wrestled 5 tournaments over the summer in 4 different states and weighed in all of them. We are in Clarksville TN this saturday, Nashville the next, and heading up I65 saturday night to wrestle at the fern creek tournament. Everyone have a good season.

Agree Matt. The ashworths had a dynasty going. And I my knowledge the only discussion re: cc was my reference to our state champs. Never said anything good or bad about history. I obviously recognize the history here. That was a big reason I live where I do.

Yes there are more options in Boone but its not like cc has 10000 more students than the Boone schools. Drawing in a similar pool as Ryle and Boone and sk.

But you care more about how you stack up than having 5-10 more kids in the sport? I'll take them all no matter what it means for me or how we stack up?

But you care more about how you stack up than having 5-10 more kids in the sport? I'll take them all no matter what it means for me or how we stack up?

This is where I think your thought process gets jaded. If I'm following you correctly, you claim adding #'s is more important than how you stack up, however you voted against a scoring system that encouraged growth with years of documented proof. Huh? How does that make any sense.

And by the way, I agree. Increasing #'s should be the primary goal of the association. I know our club has done our part in exposing more families to our sport over the past several years. Believe me, my job as a coach would be a lot easier to only have 20 kids in the room. I couldn't imagine it. We've had 80+ kids for 3 years in a row.

But you care more about how you stack up than having 5-10 more kids in the sport? I'll take them all no matter what it means for me or how we stack up?

What don't you understand about this? There WAS a motivation for a youth coach to try to get as many kids on their team as possible because it was a clear advantage at the state tournament. The people who created our by-laws knew that this would drive up numbers at the youth level by creating a competitive dynamic at state. It worked beatifully...just look at the growth results. I helped coach at Conner at the time and we knew we had to dilligently get more kids out to compete with the other large programs. Look at the largest youth programs in the state and almost all of them are in NKY. You don't want to acknowledge that this had an impact on the growth, but I know it did because I was apart of two teams that wanted to beat each other. It was like an arms race!

Now, getting more kids out isn't easy. You have to have a pipeline into football, you need more coaches, more space, etc. It takes a lot of work, but one of the incentives was to have a better chance of meeting the team's goal of a state championship. As corny and as trivial as YOU may think a team youth state title is, the kids love it and you guys took that away. The impact has been less motivation to actively get more kids out and less interest in the state tournament. Like I said our team considered and is still considering skipping our state tournament and going to CityWide. It will definitely have better competition now because of the stupid rule you imposed of not allowing middle school placers to wrestle at the youth state, it has more prestige, and they actually act as if they want us there. At the end of the day, the results will speak for themselves. You claimed eliminating team scores would not have an impact and we were jumping up and down saying it would. We'll find out at state.

I like how you ignore all of the other coaches who voted exactly the same way I did. As I recall I wasn't the only person in the room. If you are so concerned about "the bylaws" get off your couch and make the drive to the meeting. Heck this spring it was all the way in, oh no, Campbell county. I guess it is easier to sit home and whine and type when you don't like the decisions made by those who choose to actively participate.

I like how you ignore all of the other coaches who voted exactly the same way I did. As I recall I wasn't the only person in the room. If you are so concerned about "the bylaws" get off your couch and make the drive to the meeting. Heck this spring it was all the way in, oh no, Campbell county. I guess it is easier to sit home and whine and type when you don't like the decisions made by those who choose to actively participate.

You have NO clue what I do for a living, family situation, etc. For you to assume I sit on my couch and do nothing is once AGAIN showing your arrogance. I guess you expect us to just bow down to your superior knowledge and watch you run the youth association into the ground without saying a peep. I thought this board was for "adult conversation". Oh wait, I guess just like everything else, YOU decide what is and what isn't adult conversation. I can't wait for you to defend yourself when the state tournament's numbers are down. I'm sure you will have some nerdy explanation as to why it is while deflecting your own hand in it. You are already setting up your excuses by blaming it on the other coaches, when everyone knows it was you leading the charge. I activiely participate in coaching kids when time permits and taking care of my family, none of which by the way wrestle. It would be beyond weird for me to invest as much time into wrestling as you with two young daughters at home. But, according to the Great Arrogant Poobah, if someone doesn't attend the meetings, coach a middle school state championship team, and politick all year long for acceptance in the state, they should just sit back and keep their mouth shut. You are quite the piece of work Ranger.

So the entire raider youth program couldn't find one person to attend and express you side? I expressed my opinion. No charge was lead. I showed up. We talked about it. An voted. I didn't speak to others prior to gain votes. Honestly I have little more vested interest than you. Both of my boys are participating at the middle school level.

So the entire raider youth program couldn't find one person to attend and express you side? I expressed my opinion. No charge was lead. I showed up. We talked about it. An voted. I didn't speak to others prior to gain votes. Honestly I have little more vested interest than you. Both of my boys are participating at the middle school level.

I blame the lack of voting on myself. I was knee deep in other sports and didn't have wrestling on the brain. No excuse, just didn't make it. We'll be there in full force next time.

So the entire raider youth program couldn't find one person to attend and express you side? I expressed my opinion. No charge was lead. I showed up. We talked about it. An voted. I didn't speak to others prior to gain votes. Honestly I have little more vested interest than you. Both of my boys are participating at the middle school level.

I can't speak for the other coaches, but I have no interest in changing anything so I don't feel the need to attend meetings. However, now that it is clear there is a systematic attack on the original bylaws you might start seeing me more to at least defend them. For the record, my hat's off to everyone that does go to meetings and everyone that coaches. I don't publically attempt to trivialize those that volunteer their time to our sport.

RaiderCoach for President 2013

No systematic attack. Simply the democratic process at work. A majority of coaches that attend the meetings feel some change is best.

Ok, if I need to throw my vote out there, Ranger for prez, 2013!!! Sorry Raider, but u closed the poles too early.

You guys claim to encourage "adult conversation" on this site and are clearly defending JW's comments about how we ran our tournament. If you take the time to go back to the beginning of these posts and read JW's comments, he admitted that he was baiting us into this debate. He went out of his way to criticize the way we run our tournament on the eve of our event

Raidercoach: For the record- I posted that 2 days prior to your event, so it was not about your event. Furthermore it is about every event that is ran the same way in Kentucky, not just yours. Not your tournament....all of them. Doing things the way they are done promote the spread of ringworm and other skin infections. Nobody checks skin, nails, hair, etc...all because we don't want to take the time to do weigh ins - which is a good place to check those things. We spend more time redoing brackets because of mistakes....could be cured by weigh-ins because you know the kid is there. It is my opinion and it does hold alot of facts and experience, I too have been around wrestling for a few minutes as were you. I did give it an opportunity last year as it was my first year in Kentucky. But my youth wrestling experience is spread to far more states than Kentucky and the CYWL.

I did not necessarily admit to baiting you in.... just figured you would be the first to jump at the chance because you are very close minded about changing what you hold so emotionally. It is odd that nobody else got involved. Unless they are all open minded and willing to think about change.

Secondly, my only post the night after your event was on the Kentucky Youth Wrestling Facebook page where I gave you guys credit for running a good tournament.

And C: I will remain passionate about trying to better the organization that I am a part of, not trying to defend the "way it has always been" mentality. If you really want to see the numbers go down, continue to not be flexible and somebody will start a new league under USA or NUWAY or something else, and you will see a complete split. I would recommend we work together as there are some good things going on.

And it does not have to be modeled after West Virginia, there are many other states that choose to hold youth wrestlers to a standard.

Anyways - I agree with Matt about respecting all that are involved, we are all doing good things, but I don't make this about me, I make it about bettering the sport and the league.

That being said, we wrestle in TN and have to weigh in at every tournament. We are reguired to be registered by thursday night before the tournament by division and weight class. We DO NOT CUT WEIGHT. I know there are some that do just as there are coaches and parents that have kids cut with the 10% tournaments. The smallest we went to last year had a little over 500 kids. There are usually around 800 kids. These tournaments have drawn over a thousand participants.

Wow - I think that says it all. Over 500 kids and weigh-ins and not in West Virginia. Our bordering states are more proficient than us.

Thanks for the post Yankees. We just need to have people realize that it can be done and there are positive reasons for it.

Wow, this has been a pretty passionate posting thread. Now for my two cents. We moved to KY last year and was appaulled at how some of the things are ran in wrstling there. Part of it had to do with the program we where in and the horrible coach we had to deal with. There are alot of politics and I'm also speaking middle school (not youth), there are too many tournaments ran as duals. Under USA wrestling opens you have EVERY kid have the opportuinty to wrestle every weekend. You want the sport to grow, give every kid that works his or her butt off during the week a chance to wrestle on the weekends. Now I know whats coming, you will have beginner kids get beat by good kids and the good kids don't get good competition. Well facing the best is where you get better for the beginner (they all start somewhere) and with opens the better kids get good wrestlers by the end of the day. I've mentioned this before and Ranger was the first to rebutt me with long days and bad ran tournaments. My suggestion to that is what has happened in other states. Bring in the age groups at different times. Have bantam and intermediate come in early and wrestle. Then in mid-day bring in the novice and schoolboy/schoolgirl to wrestle. The days are shorter per family and every kid gets a opportuinity to compete. Also don't require kids to where just there team singlets (expect for districts, regions, and state), allow them to where whatever singlet they want. Some kids really get a kick out of that and it gives them just another reason to have interest. I'm not trying to burn any bridges with anyone. I just know where we came from that we had tournaments with over 1000 kids on at least 7 or 8 different weekends a season. Personally, the North Oldham tournament was by far the best tournament we wrestled in all of last year.

Now on a more positive note, other than the way tournaments are run and the agenda of some coaches. I do believe that the talent across the state at the top was much better than we had expected. So in some aspects the sport is growing by leaps and bounds in KY. But if you want the next level of kid to continue to get better and the gap to close, give every kid a chance to compete.

Once again, I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers or offend anyone. This is just an opinion. I do wish everyone the best for this season and hope you guys find the best way to continue to grow the sport in your state.

Once again, I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers or offend anyone. This is just an opinion.

It is the Kentucky Wrestling Forum - every statement ruffles somebody's feathers. Just curious on your opinion, what age is the right age for everyone to not get an at bat. And I don't mean that rudely, but baseball everyone should get to play. Wrestling by High School is wrestle off's. If you don't agree with MS running like High School, what age is the right age. The Sunday tournaments do exactly what you stated above, they are brackets, they have morning and afternoon, and they allow JV Middle School wrestlers to compete and they can wear any singlet they want. I think that the combination between the Saturday and Sunday tournaments give a good mix, but I am not sure of your location and experience with the team that you mentioned.

You are correct that this thread has been popular and all this over a prediction.

I'm just talking about having your sport grow, with talent all around at all levels. And I believe the right age is high school. Trust me, where we moved from has to be doing something right because there are currently wrestlers from there wrestling at Minnesota, Lehigh, Illinois, Stanford, Arizona State, Boise State, and Oregon State just to name a few. That's not by accident. Also, I'm not trying to promote the everybody wins process. I'm trying to offer suggestions to grow the sport and keep interest. In Kentucky you are always going to compete against basketball and need to do whatever it takes to draw interest to youth. So making kids wrestle every weekend before they have even hit maturity is tough. Give them all a opportunity to COMPETE, not win, to keep more kids involved. It doesn't effect my son either way, we have traveled to Reno Worlds, Regionals, and even Freestyle and Greco Nationals to compete. And he has placed in several of thes tourneys. It doesn't hurt me, just keep thinking inside the box and talking about how the sport has grown in the state, while the surrounding states still sit WAY ahead.

Kyor74, I'm a little confused. In one post you say USA events give EVERY kid the opportunity to wrestle Every weekend and in your next post you say making kids wrestle every weekend before they have hit maturity is tough. so are you wanting every kid to be able to wrestle every weekend or not?

Since you made a comment about middle school wrestling and both my sons now wrestle middle school I will focus on that. On my sons' team, spots are determined by wrestle-offs, no politics involved. A kid is never forced to wrestle at an event by a coach. They are free to opt out of wrestles off and competition as they and/or their parents see fit. Every kid is wrestling almost every weekend, even with some weights 5 kids deep. Many tournaments allow coaches to enter extra kids, we host some of our own events which allow every kid to wrestle, and duals allow for the coaches to make adjustments so that every kid sees mat time.

I also love the team aspect of middle school wrestling. As youth, my kids never really felt like part of the team because different age groups were at events at different times and many of the events divided the mats into two gyms. They didn't have the opportunity to support their teammates because everyone was divided up. Duals allow every kid to feel like a member of a team. We win as a team and we lose as a team. Every kid works hard in the practice room and contributes what they can to the team. Our champions wouldn't be champions without the hard work of everyone in the practice room. So when we win a dual everyone is a winner and everyone is treated equally. To see the kid that rarely wins a match face light up when he receives a team trophy is amazing. Duals are my favorite part of the regular season. It gets all the kids and parents involved in supporting their team. It would be a shame for kids to miss out on the importance of being part of a team and wearing that team singlet with pride.

Off season events are the time for kids to wear their own singlets and participate in any event they choose.

I said wrestle every weekend, sorry. I meant wrestle off every week to wrestle evey weekend. Also with opens over duals every child no matter how good gets an opportunity to wrestle more than just once and the more they advance the more they get to wrestle. I understand that you guys may like the way it is currently done but to close the gaps between the bottom kids and the top that comes with mat experience. It's not the same in the room as it is during tournaments. Granted you improve technique in the practice room but it is not the same as competing in tournaments against kids that you don't work with everyday at practice. Also as kids get older and know when to show up to the mat without having to be told, they still get the opportunity to cheer on teammates.

Actually in an open each child is only guaranteed to wrestle twice. You lose 2 your out. Duals offer a guaranteed number of matches. I think it is important for wrestlers to experience both type of events in order to prepare them for high school. They are plenty of open tournaments throughout the year that can be entered if one chooses.

I have looked all over to enter my kids in tournaments but the focus around northern KY is duals to let the good kids wrestle. They still get a chance to wrestle good matches in the semi finals and in the finals. When you have a team of 4 it is hard to find places to wrestle. If we really want to build the sport in KY we need more open tournaments. Out of the few kids I have I think they might be able compete but if not let us get our 2 matches and go home.

PARVUSNUMERO - Not undercutting your situation, but I think there is a decent mix around the state. John Hardin, North Hardin, Summit View, Bearcat Brawl, Hopkinsville, Christian County are all bracketed tournaments all on different dates and probably a few more that I am missing. Take those with District and Regional and you can fill 8 weeks of a schedule with nothing but brackets. For a small team as you mention having - it gives you the ability to hit some out of state tourneys on the other weeks and you could have a pretty tough schedule for your boys.

Again I respect your opinion, I just think the balance between duals and brackets are pretty good right now. I think if you contact the tourney directors off of the master list and willing to put quite a few miles on your car (NKY to Hopkinsville is lengthy) you can put a good schedule together, but it all depends on what you are looking for.

J.W thanks for your input. I went to North Harding. Summit View said they would get back to me and still haven't. Bearcat Brawl is going to be a great one but I have one that might be able to compete there and they tried to charge me 150 for him. I will be at both tournaments in Hopkinsville. In Ohio they have to be in 7 and 8 grade. I have went to TN to wrestle. The other one you forgot is Woodford Jan 1. The problem is there was a month from North Harding to the next Open Tournament.

Yeah, it would be better if we could manage to get them every other week at least. It would help the smaller schools / clubs to participate and grow. I am guessing that there are some opportunities for other clubs paying attention to pick up some tourney dates next year.

J.W thanks for your input. I went to North Harding. Summit View said they would get back to me and still haven't. Bearcat Brawl is going to be a great one but I have one that might be able to compete there and they tried to charge me 150 for him. I will be at both tournaments in Hopkinsville. In Ohio they have to be in 7 and 8 grade. I have went to TN to wrestle. The other one you forgot is Woodford Jan 1. The problem is there was a month from North Harding to the next Open Tournament.

Just to clarify the 2012 Bearcat Brawl charges $150 for a team, not for an individual to compete...if there is an opening. PM sent to PARVUSNUMERO to bring up his wrestler if he is willing to wrestle.

I would like to clairfy my post from earlier on the Bearcat Brawl they did not try to charge me 150 for a wrestler to compete but they were able to fit my wrestler in. This speaks highly the type of program they are when they go out of the way to make wrestling possible for 1 kid who works hard to be able to compete.

Thanks V.W.

Were extending the deadline till the 13th would love to see all of you there. Thanks

Raidercoach: For the record- I posted that 2 days prior to your event, so it was not about your event. Furthermore it is about every event that is ran the same way in Kentucky, not just yours. Not your tournament....all of them. Doing things the way they are done promote the spread of ringworm and other skin infections. Nobody checks skin, nails, hair, etc...all because we don't want to take the time to do weigh ins - which is a good place to check those things. We spend more time redoing brackets because of mistakes....could be cured by weigh-ins because you know the kid is there. It is my opinion and it does hold alot of facts and experience, I too have been around wrestling for a few minutes as were you. I did give it an opportunity last year as it was my first year in Kentucky. But my youth wrestling experience is spread to far more states than Kentucky and the CYWL.

I did not necessarily admit to baiting you in.... just figured you would be the first to jump at the chance because you are very close minded about changing what you hold so emotionally. It is odd that nobody else got involved. Unless they are all open minded and willing to think about change.

Secondly, my only post the night after your event was on the Kentucky Youth Wrestling Facebook page where I gave you guys credit for running a good tournament.

And C: I will remain passionate about trying to better the organization that I am a part of, not trying to defend the "way it has always been" mentality. If you really want to see the numbers go down, continue to not be flexible and somebody will start a new league under USA or NUWAY or something else, and you will see a complete split. I would recommend we work together as there are some good things going on.

And it does not have to be modeled after West Virginia, there are many other states that choose to hold youth wrestlers to a standard.

Anyways - I agree with Matt about respecting all that are involved, we are all doing good things, but I don't make this about me, I make it about bettering the sport and the league.

JW,

You call me close minded yet you are the one criticizing the way other people run their tournament. To say that we dont hold our youth tournaments to a standard is insulting and untrue. Just like everything else, you have zero evidence to support your claim that we "promote the spread of skin infections". I'd love to see your data on that outrageous claim.

The facts are we've done everything you are proposing in the past. Our by laws were created in 2006 after years of trial and error. The reality of it is, they were created to prevent people like yourself who didn't experience our early growing pains from coming in and changing things to they way they were. We need to preserve those by laws so we don't fight the same fight every three years or so as youth coaches move up to middle and high school. I am all for change when it's needed. Our growth has been incredible and these recent changes will hurt our growth.

At the end of the day, we will have high turnover at the youth level with coaches. We have an association that has by laws to preserve the standards that our association agreed to years ago after making many mistakes. The results speak for themselves. That's why if you actually talk to the guys who created our by laws, they laugh at us because we are fighting about the same things they fought over and resolved years ago.