How awesome would it be if the state tournament was at the KFC yum center?! What a great place!!

Although I think the Alltech Arena was a horrible venue for our State Tournament, I think the YUM! Center would be worse. Way too big for our needs. Wish it was back in Frankfort.

The Yum Center is too big and it'd be too expensive to rent. Unless you want to see ticket prices go up even more, you don't want to see it move there.

I think ILOVEFOOD was thinking about all the KFC concessions there.

I know there are a lot of people that work there buts off to make State a great event, I just wish the kids and sport were showcased a little more and all their hard work was being appreciated by a bigger fan base. It's going to take some time, but it would be great to be able to use one of the big arenas in KY. It's going to take more than just family and close friends showing up though to make this happen.

As interest in wrestling continues to grow, Alltech will fill up more and will "feel" like the best venue. If wrestling were to outgrow Alltech, then YumCenter might be viable. First order of business is to fill an arena.

The state tournament needs to go back to a 16 man bracket... It used to mean something to make it to state, now seems like everyone goes.

The state tournament needs to go back to a 16 man bracket... It used to mean something to make it to state, now seems like everyone goes.

I would like to see a seeded tournament as well. EASILY done via a sectional->district->state format.

The Yum Center is nice, Just not for a High School state tournament. I say keep it at AllTech.

While I feel Louisville is definitely the best location for state, the YUM Center is 10x too large. Unfortunately I'm not sure a good venue exists in Louisville...

I would say Louisville gardens or broad bent arena. Broad bent has the parking. Personally I would say the gardens.... I know it's old and dated but I like it

I would say Louisville gardens or broad bent arena. Broad bent has the parking. Personally I would say the gardens.... I know it's old and dated but I like it

Bellarmine?

Yum center sounds , bad , I cannot understand what the problems are with All Tech , central location large enough and room to add things to the tourny ,

The 16 man bracket makes it Boring , quick but Boring , if it's going to last two days at least let them wrestle enough not to totally get cold ,

I love all tech think its great. Last year was my first time to high school wrestling state so I don't have much to go by. Just an idea if they changed it to louisville

Seeded tournament would be nice.

A seeded tournament with 16 man brackets, would be super.

Everyone says they want the sport to grow but then turn around and say to diminish it by reducing the number of participants in the state tournament. That's just crazy. Kids only wrestle because they think they may have a chance to go to state. Take that away and kids will find something else to do because this sport is to hard not to have the hope of going to the state tournament. It would kill most new teams and most small teams. Right now our sport grows every year by a team or two but if we went backwards-back to a 16 man bracket state tournament we would start dropping schools. Stop living in the past and start looking towards the future. The state tournament has a great venue right now, yes its a little different than Frankfort but it was a necessary change. Good luck to all teams and wrestlers this year!

I disagree bigman. A 32 man bracket jumbles things up too much. Very rarely will you see a 1st round match that blows your mind. It becomes quite evident very quickly who belongs there and who doesn't. I will agree with you that wrestling is a hard sport, but here is where I differ. If its such a hard sport, why do we make it so easy to qualify? This isn't the YMCA where everyone gets a participation trophy. We have programmed our kids to the everyone is a winner attitude, and that is just simply untrue. There are clear winners and losers, not only on the mat, but in life. I want to grow our sport as well, but I believe we can accomplish that without watering down the competition at our State Tournament.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect the fact that yours is different than mine. Howevery I have been involved in athletics for more years than I can care to say and I have seen things that are effective as well as not effective in helping a particular sport grow, whether at a school level; or a state level it's always the same................participation. The more kids that are involved with a sport at any level the more the sport grows and the more the sport grows the stiffer the competition gets. I can tell you that I have been going to the wrestling state tournament in KY now for about 15 years and I agree that the 1st round match-ups are not the greatest to watch but I know for sure they are more competitive now than they were 5 years ago and in 5 years I will guarantee that they will be more cometitive than they are now. I can remember a couple years ago that the finals went very fast with a lot of 1st period pins thats why I agree with seeding the state tournament. Most of semi-finals were super exciting and should have been the finals if the tournament were seeded. You can't grow anything without change and when you change it takes time for to get the results you want. I think eventually the 1st round of the state tournament will be very competive and I also think eventually KY goes to districts, regions and states and maybe even sectional when I', no longer around. But it takes change to provide growth and it will take a lot of work but it won't take near as long if everyone is on the same page. Insanity = doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Wrestling in KY has steadily improved year after year and that is because there has been effective change in how we run the elem, middle and high scholl wrestling programs. This is just all honest opinion that is backed up by experience.

The 16 v 32 man bracket is interesting. I do not like they way the system works in OH with 16 man brackets. Kids that win wait around forever to wrestle again. Especially when they reach the semis and finals. This is due in part to the fact that all three division state championships are held in unison, and in part because the OHSAA spreads things over multiple days to increase the gate and concessions. Mpire can speak to this. Though in KY I think a 16 man bracket will work. Tournament held over a two day period (Fairfield Invite was this way, no?), with not much waiting. I don't buy the 32 man bracket idea just to get kids involved. Kids wrestle because they love the sport, and this sport is not about handing out participation ribbons. Qualifying for state should be earned.

The 32-man bracket waters things down. Just like six classes watered things down in football, this change was not good for the sport. I wish they'd bring back the 16-man bracket as well, but it'll never happen. Too much money they'd miss out on if they reverted back.

I for one like the 32 man bracket having wrestle in it and coached only during this era but I feel like its a great way to get kids there and see what state is like and motivate them more the next year to get on the podium plus there are a few people who place 3rd and 4th at regionals and still wind up placing like Colton hall and one year Sammy isaacs made finals after finishing 4th in region

The 32-man bracket waters things down. Just like six classes watered things down in football, this change was not good for the sport. I wish they'd bring back the 16-man bracket as well, but it'll never happen. Too much money they'd miss out on if they reverted back.

Yes, 32 man is very much watered down. 16 man bracket is the way to go. The state can make more money by producing a sectional->divisional->state format. Sectionals are one day events, division and state are two day events. Lots of money in gate receipts, more fan interest in state as it would actually mean something to get there. Which, in turn would bring out more folks to watch.

Let me ask does the host team of regionals keep all door money or does that go to the khsaa or divided among schools. If it goes to the host school how would a sectionla-divisional- state format help the school make more money?

Yes, 32 man is very much watered down. 16 man bracket is the way to go. The state can make more money by producing a sectional->divisional->state format. Sectionals are one day events, division and state are two day events. Lots of money in gate receipts, more fan interest in state as it would actually mean something to get there. Which, in turn would bring out more folks to watch.

State not school. Guess that is what I get for Typing so fast!

I'm actually a fan of the 32 participant bracket. I do believe that it keeps more kids involved and that's the most important thing. As for (some saying it's to easy to make state) it depends on the region and weight class your in. I:E Example. Last year region (6) 170 weight class a young man made the state tournament and this year he 100% will not even be seeded in the top 6. There will also be 2 other kids that are in that weight class (170) this year that made state in other weight classes that also won't qualify this year. To some it may seem easy but for others it's going to be a straight out battle just to get back there.

There really isn't an easy way because some of the regions are so tough while others are still catching up. Yes you could have sectionals but my question would be why ? Bottom line is the best wrestlers will wind up in the sweet 16 anyway so why not make it a bigger and better tournament ! Heiro Chamblee of SK was ranked 15th last year and finished runner up only to Jude. My point is this. The cream will always rise to the top so why not keep it as it is to keep everyone excited about such an amazing event.

I'll be quick, look at the 103 brackets from years past. Sometimes it wasn't even a 32 man bracket.

I think a 16-man bracket will make things a lot better for a few reasons. To me, it makes it more special to say you were one of the 16 participants -- not 32 -- to advance to State in your weight class. Thirty-two is too big a number and, like iwin said, sometimes brackets don't have 32 wrestlers.

Why do you guys think the basketball tournaments mean so much to the players? Those tourneys have 16 teams each. Why can't wrestling be like that?

I think the key word there is past.. I like Iwins posts... Just saying with the sport growing like it is with new schools coming aboard each year it's great the way it is...... and I'm not a huge fan of the khsaa sorry to say but in this case they hit it right.... jmho

This is the type of thread I truly enjoy. Everyone is expressing their opinions without any arguments. I can see both sides of it, and could even go either way. I'm just old school and old habits are hard to break.

I think a 16-man bracket will make things a lot better for a few reasons. To me, it makes it more special to say you were one of the 16 participants -- not 32 -- to advance to State in your weight class. Thirty-two is too big a number and, like iwin said, sometimes brackets don't have 32 wrestlers.

Why do you guys think the basketball tournaments mean so much to the players? Those tourneys have 16 teams each. Why can't wrestling be like that?

The thing about basketball is that it is not a growing sport it has and will for a long time be one of the dominant sports in kentucky. I mean come on you are in a state that has MANY national titles on all levels of college basketball. But wrestling on the other hand is still growing and if you take away from the state tournament it will cause a stop in the growth.

Lexington is not a central location for anybody living west of Interstate 65. How about Diddle Arena in Bowling Green ?

32 man bracket is perfect for this state...does keep up participation in the state...it's just the truth. Alltech is awesome venue for State....the DIRTY DUNGEON is one dirty place with LOUSY food !.........Love AllTech......Most states would love to have a venue like that ! I am sure some changes will take place this year to make it one of the best ever......Haven't we gone down this road before ?....Like DejaVu !!!!

Thirdround, you really enjoyed watching the finals from about 10,000 (exaggerated) feet away? Alltech was mostly clean, don't know about the food since ours was catered, but the atmosphere sucked. Frankfort's atmosphere made the State Tournament in my opinion. I know what it felt like under the lights with the crowd on top of me. When I was getting booed, I LOVED IT! It's possible we could make changes that make Alltech more suitable. Changes such as an elevated platform for the finals, seats on the floor for the wrestlers who competed at the tournament. Something that helps make it feel like that there is a crowd there.

The thing that the dungeon had over the all tech was the pre-finals celebration! At the dungeon they seemed to not care as long as nothing big was thrown onto the mats. The all tech tryed to stop most of it such as popping all the balls. Dont get me wrong state is about wrestling but the pre-finals celebration is like no other it is the celebration of all the hard work the wrestlers put into the season and the last big tournament most seniors will ever be in.

and not to mention who wants a state finals with out a spot light?

Let me ask does the host team of regionals keep all door money or does that go to the khsaa or divided among schools. If it goes to the host school how would a sectionla-divisional- state format help the school make more money?

The gate is split between the host and the state. Host keeps concessions. I stand by my belief that a trip to state must be earned. Kids get it. I have witnessed many a kid get excited about qualifying for district. For many, the district meet is the toughest comp they will see all year. For others (St Eds, Graham, Perry, Moeller), winning/finishing high at state is the goal. To boil it down: sectional is like the first round or two of the KY state. District is the next few rounds and state is the qtrs-semis-champs. As for ranked wrestlers getting left behind due to tough district assignments, yes it happens a couple of times every year. Although, if you can't get out of your own district then your probably weren't going to place high at state. Seeding at sectional is done via committee, while district and state seeds are earned via results at prior event i.e. a 2nd at sectionals gets you a 2 seed.

What about Diddle Arena at Western Ky U. I think it would be a good place for state.

How about a 24 man bracket? Top 3 go to state, #4's are alternates. That would make the 3/4 matches at Regions much more important. #1's get byes in the first round.

I really like that idea

Thirdround, you really enjoyed watching the finals from about 10,000 (exaggerated) feet away? Alltech was mostly clean, don't know about the food since ours was catered, but the atmosphere sucked. Frankfort's atmosphere made the State Tournament in my opinion. I know what it felt like under the lights with the crowd on top of me. When I was getting booed, I LOVED IT! It's possible we could make changes that make Alltech more suitable. Changes such as an elevated platform for the finals, seats on the floor for the wrestlers who competed at the tournament. Something that helps make it feel like that there is a crowd there.

If you only knew how much I enjoyed the finals last year....I could have been sitting on hot coals....I was in heaven ! It was one of the absolute best nights of my life !

Lighting would change everything for the Finals this year.....I think if they fix that the elevated platform would not be needed. KHSAA puts on a good show.

Nice points by everyone , as I said the 16 man is exciting when the matches are going and the comp is better but i think it's boring , seeding is a must,the 32 does add more kids more interest and more matches , I like it better than 16 , and I think with seeding the best kids will get the chance to meet later , you also have to like the ideal of an upset or two although they are rare one will change things up and one will happen , kids get caught have awkward matchups and bad days , anything can happen .

And 32 should help fill all tech quicker than 16!!!!

No 24 just doesn't sound right

I guess you could seed the top eight in a 24-man bracket. They'd all get byes in the first round, like someone said. I, too, like that idea, but I doubt it would go over with coaches.

I don't think it would go over either.

I wasn't a big fan of the 32 man bracket at first, but now that we have it down to a 2 day event it works. Plus I agree that allowing those extra kids the chance to get mat time on the big stage only promotes the sport.

I've been crying about seeding the state tournament for years. I don't see it ever happening. Maybe if there was extra time in between region and state the coaches could pull it off, but at this point I think too many coaches think it would be a pain with lots of fighting. Would love to see it happen and add that much more excitement to the finals when the best of the best are consistently there.

refresh my memory mpire. in ohio do the state finalists only wrestle the finals on Saturday (just one match on last day of event)?

I used to hate the 32-man bracket but have come around on it. While I would prefer the 16-man bracket, it sure does seem like we have more schools wrestling than before. Hard to say how much of that is cause/effect from increasing the bracket size, but something is working.

Anyways, I'm now saving my venom for the small school/big school state dual split.

refresh my memory mpire. in ohio do the state finalists only wrestle the finals on Saturday (just one match on last day of event)?

Here is the schedule. It is a drawn out event, especially for the winning wrestlers. Look at the down time between matches, it is unacceptable imho. Use DI for example: Win 1st round match on Thurs at 6:00, wait until 11:30 Friday to wrestle again. Win that qtr match and wait until 6:30 to wrestle semis. Then wait 24 hours to wrestle in finals. This is due in part to the fact that all three divisions are wrestling simultaneously, even with the staggered schedule. Primarily however, the event is drawn out to increase the gate. A ticket is needed for each session, either through an all session pass $75 or individual sessions at $15. For the fan the event moves along well and the parade of champions gives me chills every year.

http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/wr/boys/stsched.htm

Oh geez don't start the seeding thing again.

Don't like the idea don't understand why others do and my mind will never change on this.

Maybe if it was seeded when I wrestled I would have gotten second (big deal) i still would not have won the wt. class and still doesn't change the fact that I lost. losing in the finals or losing in the semi's (which I did 3 times) it really doesn't matter.

I'll give on the 32 man bracket. I don't think I would mind the 32 man bracket if there were still a District/Region/State set up. I don't like just one post season tourny to reach state.

GOO out.

I am a fan of the 32 man bracket. It does keep things interesting and allows for points, points, and more points to be earned either in the championship bracket or the wrestle offs. When I wrestled I placed fourth at regional's but was the only heavy from my region to place at state. I even beat the number one seed from our region to advance. It was exciting, especially for a first year wrestler, and if the guys I help coach get to feel that same excitement I did, then my vote is for it to stay the same.

No if I'm not mistaken they have two matches ,

Goo if you had districts first 32 man bracket wouldn't be needed , I think Regionals are fine and I don't see where districts are needed , I mean why , and where would all the kids come from , simply not enough , although seeding is Definatly a must , excited to see the duals never having seen any state duals ever in any state ,

X and CC will have a war I am guessing , and I am sorry I admire Union greatly and it's studs and coaches but I saw them and I know their three main studs were gone but I don't think they could beat X or CC I may be wrong and it may be a dumb statement that may have already happened or something but I don't see it .

And I know x beat CC by a point or two at the Rumble but CC is totally reorganized as far as wrestlers and their weights it is a different machine all together. It should be good .

What was the attendance at last years state? What is capacity of Alltech? This will drive the venue options as well as location. Also, I can see where this could be pared down to a two stage regional->state event rather than three stages. Seeding is a must. It makes no sense to not seed. Choose a weight class, any class. There are usually three or four boys that are ahead of the pack. Now, there is a distinct possibility that #1 meets #2 in first rd and then #3 in 2nd round. Now you have put two of the top three in the conso bracket through benign neglect. Neither has a shot at making finals, or even semis. not only are the top guys knocked down but this produces a very anticlimactic semis and finals. Every inseason tournament worth its weigh is seeded. We see it from little league up to the pros in every sport.

1 and 2 could not meet in the 1st round or second round unless one of them did not win thier region. (even if you seed, If you don't win your region then you don't get seeded)

It is possible that that the 1 and 2 could meet in the quarters and then the semi's.

And as I have stated. It all comes down to bias as to who is better than who. Even on here there has been some disagreement on who is better. Who would seed it? What person has seen all the kids wrestle to determine who is best.

example. at 145 there is dispute as to who is on top? Lampe, Hamilton, Clay, Polley, imagine if Cooper dropped (I would use Meyers but then Hamilton would not be there) I'm certain there would not be a majority of people to decide who is ranked 1-4.

To me good wrestling is good wrestling I don't care if it is in the quarters, semi's or finals. I personally believe the quarters and semi's are usually better because it's do or die and there is no holding back in those rounds. I've seen many wrestlers hold back in the finals just to hold onto a lead. (I know it's smart wrestling, but it's not exciting wrestling).

. We see it from little league up to the pros in every sport.

Not true: If the best two or three teams in MLB are in the National league they won't meet in the world series.

Same goes for NFL and i believe NBA.

I'm still not sure about the ALL TECH arena. Maybe it will grow on me.

A few things I think need to be addressed are:

For one, get a better/big score board for the Finals. That small 4 side score clock just doesn't cut it for a State Finals match, jmo.

Also the lighting was terrible for the Finals. I like the idea of a spot light just for the finals match. A bright one at that!!! LOL.

Awards/Podium. I think its ridiculous that parents (at least parents) can't enter the main floor to take pictures of their kids who have placed and getting their medal on the podium.

I like the idea of raising the Mat off the floor for the finals. That would be pretty cool. I also like the idea of letting all the wrestlers that are in the finals having them to be seated close to the mat to watch the finals.

Last, I think KY Wrestling has come along way. I'm proud to have my boys wrestling in this great state. But I think KHSAA could spend the money and buy a MAT for the finals (just the finals) that has the KHSAA logo on it and have it state "Kentucky High School State Wrestling Championships".

Ohio has mats like this and it's pretty cool.

Just my 2 cents on this topic.

To me good wrestling is good wrestling I don't care if it is in the quarters, semi's or finals. I personally believe the quarters and semi's are usually better because it's do or die and there is no holding back in those rounds. I've seen many wrestlers hold back in the finals just to hold onto a lead. (I know it's smart wrestling, but it's not exciting wrestling).

Heck yes. The best wrestling is generally qtrs and semis. We agree on something!!! but ya still gotta seed

1 and 2 could not meet in the 1st round or second round unless one of them did not win thier region. (even if you seed, If you don't win your region then you don't get seeded) In the KY unseeded tournament this very well could happen

It is possible that that the 1 and 2 could meet in the quarters and then the semi's.

And as I have stated. It all comes down to bias as to who is better than who. Even on here there has been some disagreement on who is better. Who would seed it? What person has seen all the kids wrestle to determine who is best. Seeding done by placement at regional tournament. No voting, no committee. Trust me, it works.

example. at 145 there is dispute as to who is on top? Lampe, Hamilton, Clay, Polley, imagine if Cooper dropped (I would use Meyers but then Hamilton would not be there) I'm certain there would not be a majority of people to decide who is ranked 1-4. My point exactly. These guys should be seeded, and by winning/placing high at a regional event they would be. Do you really want these guys meeting up in first two rounds at state?

To me good wrestling is good wrestling I don't care if it is in the quarters, semi's or finals. I personally believe the quarters and semi's are usually better because it's do or die and there is no holding back in those rounds. I've seen many wrestlers hold back in the finals just to hold onto a lead. (I know it's smart wrestling, but it's not exciting wrestling).

Otto you must not know how the ky state works.

The first placers in each region will wrestle a 4th placer from another region.

Example. if the higher placers win.

First round

1 V 4

2 v 3

2 v 3

1 v 4

Second round

1 V 2

1 V 2

Third round (Quarters)

1 V 1.

There is no way that 2 regional winners could meet before the Quarter finals.

The seeding that everyone in KY is talking about is seeding the regional winners (Which there are 8 regions)

Otto you must not know how the ky state works.

The first placers in each region will wrestle a 4th placer from another region.

Example. if the higher placers win.

First round

1 V 4

2 v 3

2 v 3

1 v 4

Second round

1 V 2

1 V 2

Third round (Quarters)

1 V 1.

There is no way that 2 regional winners could meet before the Quarter finals.

The seeding that everyone in KY is talking about is seeding the regional winners (Which there are 8 regions)

Damn straight, grappler. I did not know this. I have heard many comment on this "why isn't the state tournament seeded?" So I assumed it was a total blind draw. Thanks for setting me straight on this. Help me out once more.....Is the regional a blind draw? Perhaps that is where the confusion is. And, if it is a blind draw then that should be changed through a seed meeting. Thanks again.

Regional is seeded as well. I think what everyone is compaining about and would like to see is that the top 2-4 number 1's from regionals don't end up on the same side. It is a random draw on which region #1's end up together.

Thx all for the enlightenment. I can see where there are situations in which the top guys in a class come out of the same region. In many cases the top guys are returning placers. Separation can be given to these returning placers. Criteria can be put in place in which returning placers from the same class a year prior are given 1st order of separation, from a different weight class 2nd order, etc..... Another question if I may. Are all 32 slots seeded? Or is it just the top four?

Problem is, there are 8 Regions, 8 #1's, and 16 kids that quite honestly don't deserve to be there. Ok, I'm gonna take criticism for that last statement, but it's ok. I have big shoulders, I'll carry it. When we had 16 man brackets, the possibility of the State's 2 best kids meeting up before finals, was possible, but not until semis (if they won Regionals like they should have.) Now we have that same possibility in the quarters. Goo, your right, the best kid will win regaurdles, my only point is it is anticlimatic to watch a final with 1 dominate kid and 1 so so kid. Do I know how to seed it????? Nope!! Just think it should be looked in to. Crazyotto, to answer your question, it is seeded in a blind draw fashion. Every region champ will wrestle the 4th place finisher from a different region. Same for the 2's and 3's. 1vs4, 2vs3. Problem comes when u have 4 #1s on the same side of the bracket. Eventually that will create problems. I have seen a previous year STATE FINAL MATCH, happen the next year in the QUARTERS!!!! No way that should have happend, but it did

There is always four number 1's one each side of the bracket.

Top bracket

1v4

2v3

1v4

2v3

1v4

2v3

1v4

2v3

Bottom bracket

1v4

2v3

1v4

2v3

1v4

2v3

1v4

2v3

I could see where seeding would be good but I am not a fan of it. Makes for some good match ups early on as we had with Jarvis vs. Rucsh last year at 160 in the second round.

Top four kids in the state should Definatly be seeded

After that it probably gets hairy

I have seen a previous year STATE FINAL MATCH, happen the next year in the QUARTERS!!!! No way that should have happend, but it did

So you are saying we should fix the state tournament with the finals matches being pre-planned? I think this mentality is garbage. The kids who make it to the finals deserve to be in the finals. POINT BLANK PERIOD! IF a kid deserves to be in the finals he will make it happen on his own, not because someone mapped the brackets out so his toughest competition is on the opposite side of the bracket.

So in your opinion a previous years State Champ and State Runner Up meeting in the quarters is desirable? That mentality is garbage. If Kevin and Steph were in the same weight class, would it really be fair to either of those kids, coaches, spectators to wrestle each other anytime before the finals? Arguably the 2 pound for pound best wrestlers in the state wrestling anytime before the finals would be absolutely ridiculous.

Of course the best guys should meet in the finals , and if a kid has earned his rank and seed then HE preplanned his own destiny not anyone fixing a bracket if they earn it they get it and If anyone with a lower seed wants it they have to earn it from them

Beat them take their spot on the ladder ,

Blind draw and no seed is ignorance .

Ahh but using the GMV (not trying to stir the pot) The finals still happened in the Semi's.  The Meyer/Merlini (don't know how to spell his name and don't care because he is from ohio) was the finals match.  Yet this tourney was still seeded. 

 

My point is this:  who decides the seeds?  Who decides who is 1,2,3,and 4.  If there is a fool proof way of determining this then I would be for it, but there is not and therefore I'm not for it.  If you seed then there will be a cry of bias for one kid or team

Well , there are a long list of criteria , but honestly everyone usually knows who is top four splitting them up is not really rocket science .

Ahh but using the GMV (not trying to stir the pot) The finals still happened in the Semi's.  The Meyer/Merlini (don't know how to spell his name and don't care because he is from ohio) was the finals match.  Yet this tourney was still seeded. 

 

My point is this:  who decides the seeds?  Who decides who is 1,2,3,and 4.  If there is a fool proof way of determining this then I would be for it, but there is not and therefore I'm not for it.  If you seed then there will be a cry of bias for one kid or team

I agree with your point that allowing an outside influence seed the wrestlers is a poor idea. The wrestlers decide this in their regional placement. Outside of that, regional pairings at the state meet should be random. True enough there will be finals type matches in the semis. Quite honestly, it should be that way. Most weight classes should have more than two top flight wrestlers which means semis are a blast to watch! Using GMV example: Cooper, Myers, and Marinelli were all worthy of making the finals (was Kowal here as well or had he already dropped?), as it should be.

Well , there are a long list of criteria , but honestly everyone usually knows who is top four splitting them up is not really rocket science .

Do you think this could be done through separation of returning state champs/placers?

Crazyotto, I agree what your saying about the semis. Typically this is my favorite round at any tournament. I just hate seeing these matches happen in the quarters.

That ,their record against top comp and , simple common knowledge .

That ,their record against top comp and , simple common knowledge .

Example: wrestler A goes 22-3 on the year with some big wins over top talent along with three losses to top talent vs wrestler B without big name wins and nor losses. Who would be ranked higher? Simple common knowledge says the CC wrestler that is battle tested and battle proven. However, there will be a contingent that do not believe this. Some will cry foul, claim fixed brackets.........And in turn what is happening is the wrestler that did not have the opportunity to see top comp is being penalized.

Your post shifted from a hypothetical wrestler to a CC wrestler ,hahahhahaha

As I said numerous criteria , record,

Rank , previous yr placement ,regional placement , all regional champs would get a good seed the coaches would seed the best I doubt a large group would get it wrong .

Your post shifted from a hypothetical wrestler to a CC wrestler ,hahahhahaha

As I said numerous criteria , record,

Rank , previous yr placement ,regional placement , all regional champs would get a good seed the coaches would seed the best I doubt a large group would get it wrong .

Ha! Didn't notice that. True though. Imagine Stephen, with one loss getting the 2nd seed to some turd that went undefeated wrestling a crap schedule. Sure, he would hammer the kid when the time came around, but this is why it is tough to use the simple common sense method.

To seed the state tournament would take a longer break between tourneys, IMHO. The seed meetings for region take a while, but they're usually done and ready to go within a few hours. I can't imagine how long it would take to do the entire state.

To seed the state tournament would take a longer break between tourneys, IMHO. The seed meetings for region take a while, but they're usually done and ready to go within a few hours. I can't imagine how long it would take to do the entire state.

And if you have ever sat through a regional seeding meeting then you know how crazy it can get. Coaches want to seed their kid higher than an obvious winner because of record and a weak schedule. I've seen some crazy seeding meetings in my day.

Not long using regional placings and the other criteria !!!!!

Otto it happened to Stephen a lot .....in Ohio , a very low seed at Iron Man placed 4th , no seed at Swowca after iron man 4th and a fargo 6th won easily , Stephen was a second seed at regionals last yr. and Austin a fresh was first ??????? I am still confused how a fresh got ranked 1st and an undefeated state champ got a 2 but 1 or 2 isn't that big a difference just if you win as a 2 you beat the next two best usually .

By common sense , I think it would be easier with a group as i said

Is there a straight criteria for regional seedings ? I don't know ? A couple of weight classes are going to be tough to seed especially in region 6.

If there isn't a straight forward criteria how do the seeds get decided ? loudest voice wins lol... no seriously I'm actually curious to see this answer from coaches or from some that actually know. Thanks

Trackwrestling helps with this, but its not perfect by any means. Returning State Champs, placers, regional Champs, placers, records, and head to head are mostly used. Sometimes if 2 seedable kids haven't wrestled they look at common opponents.

Track does a pretty good job.

Something that I think that needs to be addressed at Alltech is the temperature on the floor.  There is a good 10-15 degee temperature change from the warm up area to the wrestling mats.  The mats closest to the doors on the spectator entry level are the coolest.  The air enters thru the doors and drops to the floor.  This isn't good after you have warmed up and the go out to wrestle and there is a huge temperature change.  Just some food for thought.

Not long using regional placings and the other criteria !!!!!

 

.

By common sense , I think it would be easier with a group as i said

Hahahahahahahahah

you obviously have not been to many high school seeding meetings.

What you may think is common sense makes no sense to many others and vice versa. 

 

Common opponent.  Year right.  How many times has SK, Ryle, or CC wrestled in KY let alone have common opponents with other teams in KY.

 

Better record against tougher opponenets.  Who decides who a tough opponenet is?  I would guess that many in ky would not know the names of many of the tough kids in Ohio, Ind or elswhere.  Even if they are nationally ranked.  Most/many coaches don't care who they are if they are not from KY.  As for the tournament they were at, well sometimes a tough overall tourny has a weak wt. class and an overall weak tourney could have a killer wt. class in it. 

 

Track wrestling does a good job of what?  Do even half the teams in ky keep it updated?

I think Iwin meant they did a good job of criteria used for seeding ?????

If you have a bunch of coaches who will not be somewhat reasonable and admitt what they actually know then it would be hard , honestly most of us could seed the whole state and do a decent job of it from

Records looking in on who is wrestling who and the few matches we see a few honest coaches in each part of the state should have no problem , and a few wrong here and there will

Lead to the upsets that excite everyone once in a while . Just about any two guys on here could seed the top two kids in each class correctly , most know who the top few kids are and records could do the rest .

I know what you mean about some schools Sk Ryle CC not wrestling all ky schools but those schools do wrestle in some big KY tournys and going from them it would not be hard to seed their kids .

I actually think CC wrestles more Ohio kids than KY , very impressede with their schedule ... Minus a big BIG tourny that could help some of its top kids solidify their place amongst the nations best .

I will give them one thing though as a team they went To NHSCAs and despite no big three or four tourny in season as some too schools attend they seem to stick together afterwards as many top teams do not , I know some do but it's a nice touch and a bit odd hitting their toughest tourny afterwards which leads me to believe the coaches are worried about their not so elite guys getting discouraged or hammered in season , because they do not do after season tournys , it may even out , if you think about it as I have .

And if you have ever sat through a regional seeding meeting then you know how crazy it can get. Coaches want to seed their kid higher than an obvious winner because of record and a weak schedule. I've seen some crazy seeding meetings in my day.

I've sat through quite a few Region 2 seed meetings in my day. Some times they're fun, other times they take forever and are drawn out. Quickest seed meeting I've ever gone to was the year the region tourney was at Central. Everything was done and compiled in about 2 hours.

I see everyone on here basically discussing two major issues with the KY state tournament, seeding and the 32 vs 16 man bracket.  Why don't we as a wrestling community take a poll on which one we want to change more?  Start the poll on here and then the coaches who are active on here can push for the poll that will actually matter, among the coaches around the state; get the coaches association to organize and mandate participation.  When the results are in, assuming they are one-sided, the coaches association brings this issue up to the KHSAA.  If you bring too many things to argue about then they will blow you off so you concentrate your efforts on one of them and hope for the best. 

 

I for a long time did not like the 32 man bracket, I competed in both, but have come to accept it and agree with the person who said that KY wrestling is improving and growing.  This is my ultimate goal so I don't want to mess with a good thing.  I think seeding the region champs would be easier than most think it would.  If you compare the rankings and regional champs you would find in any given weight class that the seedable wrestlers are normally not the top 8 wrestlers in the state.  You would have something like #1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, and 13.  This is because many of the top wrestlers are in the same region as another top wrestler so only one would be seeded and a few get upset in the regional finals against a lesser wrestler for whatever reason.  Like Mpire said, seeding the top four might take awhile but after that it gets easy.  My senior year I lost in the regional finals and then the state finals against the same guy.  Even though I was ranked third at the time I wouldn't have been seeded.  For the record I was one of those who benefitted from the tournament not being seeded.  I disagreed with the policy then and still do today; I mean EVERY other tournament the entire season is seeded and then when we get to the end and most important tourney we throw that tried and tested formula out the window?  It doesn't make sense.  Coaches, suck it up and do what's best for the kids... and yes I have coached high school in KY and sat through seemingly endless meetings of mindless discussion.  It's about what is best for the kids; ask them for their opinions and I guarantee you 9 out of 10 will say to seed it.

 

Sorry I ramble sometimes...

Well not exactly what i said , but your post was very good and it does seem everyone would want it seeded , some classes would seem obvious that a pair or more should be seperated .

Like uh for instance uh we'll just say if you have two undefeated wrestlers one a state champ from the previous yr at 220 and one a state champ from 195 .Both at the same weight ... It would be a crime for them to be on the same side of a bracket at state .

GOO - Last, I think KY Wrestling has come along way. I'm proud to have my boys wrestling in this great state. But I think KHSAA could spend the money and buy a MAT for the finals (just the finals) that has the KHSAA logo on it and have it state "Kentucky High School State Wrestling Championships".
Ohio has mats like this and it's pretty cool.

 

One of my goals as President is for our organization to purchase a State Finals Mat that is only used in the State Finals and at the State Duals. It will have the KYWCA logo on it though.

I am all for seeding the tournament....if it would be possible. I see two things that could hinder it. 

 

1. Time - It would take forever to seed something like the State Tournament especially when a lot of teams do not see each other or have common opponents.

 

2. You would really have to be careful in who seeded it. You would need a very unbiased committee that had no agenda in doing so. When we discussed the split for State Duals, I asked coaches to vote based on if it would help growth for the sport and made a point to let coaches know that this is only reason that should be considered and not if it betters so and so's team etc. 

How come I got singled out in your comment.  ?????

 

An old timer like me just rambles on about things and has little to no control over any of it.

 

I do like the idea of a state finals mat that says "KENTUCKY STATE CHAMPIONSHIP".  or something like that.  I've been a ky based wrestler/fan for to long to wish I was someplace else.  I'm one of those people that just cares about KY and nothing alse.  I don't even care about national rankings and such. Other that what I have read on here I could not tell you one kid ranked nationally (even if they were from ky).  Im just interested in what will help KY wrestling and anyone involved in it. 

 

I don't believe seeding the state tourney helps KY wrestling in any way.  In growth, attendance, or participation. 

 

Once again these are the opinions of GOO nothing more and nothing less.  You can take them or leave them. 

GOO out.

GOO - I wasn't calling you out. I just could not get the quote button to work so I copied and pasted. I thought you had good points and wanted to reply.

I cannot understand

Why it would be so hard to seed the tournament or why Anyone wouldn't want to , unless they simply want to see some

Chaos as far as who makes finals and such ,

If you have two or three or more of the best kids on one side the finals are a joke and there is mo true first second or third for that matter , if the state cannot put a group together that cannot seed the tournament honestly then it's In bad shape , I have seen it cost kids a trip to finals and possibly a championship ,My own in fact ,and it's ignorance at its best ,

Take two kids on the same side who are obviously the top two , one gets a bogus call slips whatever and ends up in consos losing by a point , meanwhile in the finals

It's a blowout because one side was weak as crap

Not exactly how you want to see your high school efforts end up because a group of people in charge are to crooked to seed a tournament that is supposed to represent the highest goal of most high school wrestlers and teams in the nation !!!

This topic is so cut and dry it doesn't even deserve discussion , of course you seed a state tournament unless everyone is just to dumb to do it and in that case it's all useless anyway !!!!!!!!!

I cannot understand

Why it would be so hard to seed the tournament or why Anyone wouldn't want to , unless they simply want to see some

Chaos as far as who makes finals and such ,

If you have two or three or more of the best kids on one side the finals are a joke and there is mo true first second or third for that matter , if the state cannot put a group together that cannot seed the tournament honestly then it's In bad shape , I have seen it cost kids a trip to finals and possibly a championship ,My own in fact ,and it's ignorance at its best ,

Take two kids on the same side who are obviously the top two , one gets a bogus call slips whatever and ends up in consos losing by a point , meanwhile in the finals

It's a blowout because one side was weak as crap

Not exactly how you want to see your high school efforts end up because a group of people in charge are to crooked to seed a tournament that is supposed to represent the highest goal of most high school wrestlers and teams in the nation !!!

This topic is so cut and dry it doesn't even deserve discussion , of course you seed a state tournament unless everyone is just to dumb to do it and in that case it's all useless anyway !!!!!!!!!

Is there a state that seeds the tournament? Honest question....... In a perfect world (you know, the one in which all wrestlers have the same schedule)it would be easy to do, however we are not there. Seeding via Regional placement is the best we've got. The problem comes in the fact that with eight Regionals feeding the tournament it is more than likely to have a few unbalanced brackets. The way to seed more accurately would be to implement another step, Districts. This way the fish are filtered out and the placers are slotted the same as Regionals. The true top guys rise up and are separated. The difference being 16 man brackets. Yes, we've been down that road and it does not seem to be popular. The brackets on both sides are even though, as a pre-determined (meaning way before sectionals and districts) pairing of Districts is used. No funny stuff.

Districts would just be another ignorant step for KY and doesn't solve anything as far as seeding at state , you will still have kids from a certain area with the same seed or place heading to state , districts would solve nothing .

Regional placings head to head matchups and just plain common sense should be used to seed kids at state ,

I'm sure you know my point and example Otto since you are from Ohio .

Things still change with different matchups some

Kids have off days and snap back on others or just peak at the right moments , either way having the best match ups in the semis or quarters is a shame .

Take two undefeated wrestlers who have both had decent comp and are from different regions both are state champs and no one else has a record to match , they could meet in KY before Finals , that's dumb

Districts would just be another ignorant step for KY and doesn't solve anything as far as seeding at state , you will still have kids from a certain area with the same seed or place heading to state , districts would solve nothing .

Regional placings head to head matchups and just plain common sense should be used to seed kids at state ,

I'm sure you know my point and example Otto since you are from Ohio .

Things still change with different matchups some

Kids have off days and snap back on others or just peak at the right moments , either way having the best match ups in the semis or quarters is a shame .

Take two undefeated wrestlers who have both had decent comp and are from different regions both are state champs and no one else has a record to match , they could meet in KY before Finals , that's dumb

I see where you are coming from in regards to best match ups in semis. It does happen, every year. If your example is Stephen's freshman year then......I just looked at that bracket. Mines, Newhouse, Collica, Myers, Bright, Ague, Timchenko. Packed and stacked! Myers with 9-8 win over Collica in qtrs. The bracket looked pretty darned level to my eyes. One side had Bright, Ague, Newhouse, Timchenko. Other side had Myers, Collica, Mines, Boyd. Results 1 thru 8: Mines, Newhouse, Myers, Boyd, Gray, Bright, Timchenko, Griffith. What stands out to me is the fact that Ague and Collica did not place. The finals was between Mentor District #1 Newhouse and Mentor District #3 Mines. The Mentor District, as always, is a meat grinder. Collica beat Mines in District semis. Newhouse beat Ague. Newhouse over Collica for 1st, Mines over Ague for 3rd. On the other hand Myers was the only one out of the Fairfield District to place at state. Yes, he was so very close to beating Mines in semis. He was the only one from Fairfield District to place at the state. So I don't see any kind of conspiracy. What I do see (which is an annual event) is the Mentor District representing well with two finalists. Mines came out of district a #3 and beat the same district #1 in finals. So using the District placing numbers Myers saw a 4, 2, 3, 3, 1. Losing to #3 Mines in semis. Bright, also a #1 seed like Myers saw a 4, 2, 1, 1, 3. Placed 6th losing to #1 Newhouse in semis, then #1 Boyd in conso semis, followed by loss to Gray in the 5/6 match. I would say the deck was stacked against the hated St Edward's wrestler Bright.

Stephen beat Newhouse that yr 9-2 . Definatly lopsided bracket everyone in Ohio noticed , I guess except you .

Mines losing to Collica at district screwed everything up is the real problem with that yr and I thought Stephen beat Collica worse either way it was a massacre from the first period , lat drop Collica down 5-0 to start and the hated myers helped knock him out and beat grey who beat bright earlier in the tourny , .

We have had this discussion several times.  Every year about this time. 

 

I believe that a few states attempt to seed their tourneys.  Thier criteria's were must be a regional champ and must be a returning placer.  The higher placer from last year gets the higher seed.

 

I'm with you on this Mpire;  Your right this topic is cut and dry and does not need discussion, you don't seed the state tourney, unless everyone has a crystal ball and knows who is the best on the 2 days of the tourney or has seen every one of the qualifiers in each wt. class wrestle. 

 

I don't understand how it costs anyone a championship.  You must beat everyone to win it do if you lose then you would not win that day anyway.  As I've mentioned I believe I was the second best in my wt. class at least twice.  But met the same person 2 years in a row in the semi's.  So I didn't make the finals, I did the best I could in the semi's and came back out.  No skin off my nose I wasn't the best so I took what I could after that.  Had actually beaten the #2 the year before.  But not one time did I or anyone in my family say, "I should have been in the finals, if only i'd been on the other side".  I said "Man I should have won in the semi's, then i would have been a state champ". 

 

What about a district where top four qualify then have a region where all eight will still qualify for state but you then have placers 1-8.  That way you have only 4 Regional Champs, who will wrestle a #8 regional placer.  And still have a 32 man bracket.  It lessens the chance of the best two meeting in quarters and semi's.

 

Or how about this.

 

Districts already place top 6.  So send all 6 to a region.  Makes it a 12 man bracket so can still be run in one day. 
 

have placement to top eight who all qualify for state tourney.  Again you have only 4 regional winners who would wrestle a #8 placer from another region.  That leaves 2 regional champs on each side of the brackets, No regional champions meeting each other till the Semi's. 

Stephen beat Newhouse that yr 9-2 . Definatly lopsided bracket everyone in Ohio noticed , I guess except you .

Mines losing to Collica at district screwed everything up is the real problem with that yr and I thought Stephen beat Collica worse either way it was a massacre from the first period , lat drop Collica down 5-0 to start and the hated myers helped knock him out and beat grey who beat bright earlier in the tourny , .

Quite honestly, I had no recollection of the bracket until you brought it up. I had to go look it up. It was a tough bracket no matter how you cut it. Lopsided? That is a bit much. No bracket is perfect. Seeding won't fix that either. "Crooked"? No way. You could say that had Mines won his district things would have slotted differently in the bracket. But, that is why you wrestle and not look at the "on paper" stuff. Mines faced district 2, 1, 1, 1 on his way to winning it. That is what you get for placing 3rd at district. He earned it. What event did Stephen beat Newhouse? Ironman, or state duals I am guessing.

I'll be darned GOO, I actually really like the idea of district tournament where the top 4 qualify for regions and then at regions wrestle 1-8 and everyone moves on. May not fix the problem completely, but the odds are a lot better. Nice fix sir, well played.

Stephen beat Newhouse at Graham Massilon Moeller Tri at graham , think he stuck the graham kid or techd him .

He Definatly had a tough class beat Collica but It wasn't close as you have said it was a massacre .

And Bright finished sixth after losing to Alfredo Grey who Stephen beat by four or so on his way for third after beating a very underrated Boyd with .....you guessed it a slide by from Hell courtesy of dear old dad and a whole lot of forced drilling with ATM lol

Poor dads never get any love and kids think they simply do what they do because they are great but it's all good ,

Shame a ref makes a bad call one step fleeing I don't think so , guess you have to knock the champ out sometimes but hard to do for a 112 lb fresh vs a 112 lb sr returning state champ , as has been said true champs rise after failure Stephen always has , particularly after both bs Ohio ref calls in his matches .

Nothing of which has to do with any thing about where Ky state should be , or why once again you are poking into my Mpire

Otto once again your state seems to have it out for Stephen lol . A 2 seed again for a 2 x champ 3 x placer and the only returning champ in that weight in that class , that's good though I have always wanted To see Stephen wrestle Ford .

The Louisville International Convention Center would be a great place to have it in Louisville, it seats 7000 and has hosted ncaa div 2 basketball championship and ncaa volleyball in the past. Could be a perfect fit for state wrestling tourney.  Louisville Gardens wouldnt bad either, it has the feel of a high school gym and seats about 3000. I also think it should go back to 16 man bracket, it gets rid of the kids that have no business being there and allows that kids that make feel some kind of accomplishment. it was difficult to get to state when i was in high school and it meant something if you made. in our district there was Valley, Fairdale, and Western who were all ranked as a team, then we went to the region and had to deal with Trinity, St X, and Seneca who were ranked teams. To get to state out of those teams really meant something and it showed how hard you worked all year!!!!

The horse park is such a good central location , dead center , plenty of room , and a nice clean eye pleasing locale, I don't understand the reason for people wanting to move it so bad after just one yr it seems it would take a couple to not only grow on people but for the promoters to work out the. Ifs and add to the tournament !!!!

Moving to Louisville would put it way north for some although it could be just as close for most people , Lexington simply seems the most appropriate place , no one can complain about favoritism as far as location , on a map it's central .

16 man bracket with an extra tournament or 32 at state , main effect = shrinking the state tourny cutting out half the people and taking away half the kids who get to say they made it to state taking that piece of their wrestling history away , doesn't seem fair to the kids and would hurt the revenue and overall feel of the tourny ,

The next step take it down to only placing top 6 as I have heard argued before then everyone would say top four , then it might as well

Be there ,

Of the state wants to have a travelling tournament perhaps Louisville would

Be good if it wants to establish a home

For the event Lexington and the horse Park is perfect ,what would be the chances of UKs arena .

I'm just pissed they're talking about not releasing brackets on the 2nd day. I thought we where trying to grow the sport. The quickest way for a casual fan to become disinterested is for him to not have a clue what's going on.