Or look at it a different way. The 1 and 2 seed get 2 #2's and while the 3 and 4 get a 1 and a 2. Not complicated.

I will say this again. This was done to see if it helps growth. If I remember correctly, and I know I do, when we went to the 32 man bracket there was a lot of whining about how oh it waters it down, yadi, yadi, yadi....yet it did its purpose. Took us from around 70 teams to over 100. Keep your eye on the big prize and not just the one for your team.

Is there any evidence that actually shows that is what grew the # of teams from 70 to 100?

From khsaa website, it looks like 69 teams in 2000. Just under 100 now. I know that was about the time of the change. I'm sure coach mccoy has exact numbers, he doesn't make a habit if just throwing numbers out from no where.

From khsaa website, it looks like 69 teams in 2000. Just under 100 now. I know that was about the time of the change. I'm sure coach mccoy has exact numbers, he doesn't make a habit if just throwing numbers out from no where

 

. I'm not questioning the numbers. Nor am I saying the reason is incorrect. I'm just curious if there is any actual evidence saying that is what caused the change. I don't recall hearing a program was started because the state tournament expanded from 16 to 32.

Good point , that doesn't really add up , I like the 32 bracket and it does bring more kids to state , more profits to the tournament and something that has not been discussed much if at all .

16 kids will not fill up an Arena if 32 will not yet ,

No question about it 32 is better for the state right now more numbers more matches more interest from those coming to cheer on their kids . And I think deep down everyone thinks its better having more kids be able to say HEY I made it to state ,

Your placers and winners will still be the same and even they will be like hey I placed in that bigger class at state .

Or look at it a different way. The 1 and 2 seed get 2 #2's and while the 3 and 4 get a 1 and a 2. Not complicated.

I will say this again. This was done to see if it helps growth. If I remember correctly, and I know I do, when we went to the 32 man bracket there was a lot of whining about how oh it waters it down, yadi, yadi, yadi....yet it did its purpose. Took us from around 70 teams to over 100. Keep your eye on the big prize and not just the one for your team.

I don't believe for a minute that the 32 man bracket has let to the addition of 30 teams. What has lead to that growth is the development of youth and middle schools wrestling in Kentucky. These leagues bring hundreds of new wrestlers to the sport every year. If you look at the timeline the evidence is obvious. The fact that more kids make the state tournament has zero impact on growth, though it may help retention.

I don't believe for a minute that the 32 man bracket has let to the addition of 30 teams. What has lead to that growth is the development of youth and middle schools wrestling in Kentucky. These leagues bring hundreds of new wrestlers to the sport every year. If you look at the timeline the evidence is obvious. The fact that more kids make the state tournament has zero impact on growth, though it may help retention.

Are there instances where a middle school/youth program has came before the HS one?

Are there instances where a middle school/youth program has came before the HS one?

The reinstatement of Boone county's program could be sited as one example. Youth and middle schoold programs at Ryle, gray, cooper, ockerman, and Conner all existed before the reinstatement and covered parts of Boone County's district. Beyond that direct correlation, overall increased participation increased awareness and interest in the sport and those have led to growth.

Was 2000 the first yr for the middle school state tour ? I could see this being a big factor in the growth if so .

I don't believe for a minute that the 32 man bracket has let to the addition of 30 teams. What has lead to that growth is the development of youth and middle schools wrestling in Kentucky. These leagues bring hundreds of new wrestlers to the sport every year. If you look at the timeline the evidence is obvious. The fact that more kids make the state tournament has zero impact on growth, though it may help retention.

I agree with this statement 100%. To build any program it is necessary to build from the ground up. Begin with the youth program. I have however changed my stance on the 32 man bracket. As the curent format sits, regional -> state, cutting the bracket in half would definitely leave some good kids at home. This would mean taking the top two from each region. If the asociation would add in a district event in front of the state championship then a 16 man bracket would work well. The state meet would be much more entertaining as well (no fish).

I will provide evidence from data that since the 32 man bracket was implemented growth has occurred. Keep in mind, the reason the KHSAA went to the 32 man bracket was to help lead to growth and give more individuals the chance to participate in the state tournament. I do think that the growth of youth programs has contributed but MOST youth programs are not started unless there is a High School team to feed into first. Notice I said MOST not ALL.

 

The KHSAA went to a 32 man bracket in the 2001-2002 season. In that season there were 65 teams. Eight teams from that year no longer have wreslting (Campbellsville, Ballard, KCD, Waggener, Covington Holy Cross, Frankfort, Oneida Baptist, and East Carter).The number of participants that entered the region tournaments was 708 participants. In five year period, 2002-2007, the number of schools increased to 74 and the total number of participants was 1,633 (828 entries in the Region tournaments). Over the next five years, 2007-2012, the number of schools again increased to 92 teams and the total number of participants was 1,926 (974 entries in the Region tournaments). 

 

Based on the data, the goal of the KHSAA worked. Wrestling has grown in both the number of teams and the number of participants. All of my data was taken from the KHSAA and the NFHS. The proof is in the pudding.

 

I will say this, I am a person who is open to criticism....when it is constructive. Some people get on here and complain yet offer no solution to the problem. Wrestling is growing. Period. Sometimes you have to take chances for something you believe in. Many coaches believe that growth will come with splitting the State Duals. Two things will happen....1. Nothing and we will take another look at the format or 2. Continued Growth. To me it is a win-win situation. 

I will provide evidence from data that since the 32 man bracket was implemented growth has occurred. Keep in mind, the reason the KHSAA went to the 32 man bracket was to help lead to growth and give more individuals the chance to participate in the state tournament. I do think that the growth of youth programs has contributed but MOST youth programs are not started unless there is a High School team to feed into first. Notice I said MOST not ALL.

 

The KHSAA went to a 32 man bracket in the 2001-2002 season. In that season there were 65 teams. Eight teams from that year no longer have wreslting (Campbellsville, Ballard, KCD, Waggener, Covington Holy Cross, Frankfort, Oneida Baptist, and East Carter).The number of participants that entered the region tournaments was 708 participants. In five year period, 2002-2007, the number of schools increased to 74 and the total number of participants was 1,633 (828 entries in the Region tournaments). Over the next five years, 2007-2012, the number of schools again increased to 92 teams and the total number of participants was 1,926 (974 entries in the Region tournaments). 

 

Based on the data, the goal of the KHSAA worked. Wrestling has grown in both the number of teams and the number of participants. All of my data was taken from the KHSAA and the NFHS. The proof is in the pudding.

 

I will say this, I am a person who is open to criticism....when it is constructive. Some people get on here and complain yet offer no solution to the problem. Wrestling is growing. Period. Sometimes you have to take chances for something you believe in. Many coaches believe that growth will come with splitting the State Duals. Two things will happen....1. Nothing and we will take another look at the format or 2. Continued Growth. To me it is a win-win situation. 

Growth is happening, that much is not in question.  But, just because both A and B are occurring, that doesn't mean A caused B.  My original question was, is there anything that directly links the two? Do we have schools out there saying they started their programs because of an increased chance to make it to state?

 

It is a definite possibility that is what caused the growth of wrestling in the state.  But to simply state that both things happened during a time period and attribute one's happening to the other as fact, is a fallacy --- if the only thing supporting it are the dual occurrences.

I have never once said that the split nor the 32 man bracket were the direct cause of the growth. I have no doubt it is a combination of things. But I do believe that it all ties together. Success increases numbers in programs because kids want to be part of a winner. I have no doubt that the numbers at Larue grew due to their success. Heck, they have some of their accomplishments on a mat I believe. Their success came from a number of things including more opportunities.

Lets discuss this here.

I have never once said that the split nor the 32 man bracket were the direct cause of the growth. I have no doubt it is a combination of things. But I do believe that it all ties together. Success increases numbers in programs because kids want to be part of a winner. I have no doubt that the numbers at Larue grew due to their success. Heck, they have some of their accomplishments on a mat I believe. Their success came from a number of things including more opportunities.

Sorry if I misread, but the "proof is in the pudding" comment lead me to believe you feel 32 has caused the growth.

My point with the proof is in the pudding comment is that growth has occurred since we went to the 32 man bracket. Data shows that. I agree it is not linked to only that but I do feel that it does play a part because it offers more opportunities. My frustration is that we often begin to put down "change" before "change" has a chance to run its course. I have my own opinions I do not share about Big School / Small School but I try to represent the coaches I have been chosen to represent. 

Gentlemen, Gentlemen - Don't get hung up on numbers or individual data points. Trends are what is meaningful. Middle School or 32 man brackets? It doesn't matter. It is up and to the right which is the same trend you'd like to see in your 401K.

I will mention a few things that could also contirbute to the growth of the sport in KY. 

 

• Youth wrestling and youth state
• Middle school being an association
• Colleges in the state that offer wrestling as a sport
• 32 man bracket (I would like to see the numbers and growth prior to 2001-2002.  Maybe from the mid 80s through 2000, if there was growth prior to 32 man bracket be instated, we can rule that out as the reason for the growth!!!)
• Better more qualified coaches

I will mention a few things that could also contirbute to the growth of the sport in KY. 

 

• Youth wrestling and youth state
• Middle school being an association
• Colleges in the state that offer wrestling as a sport
• 32 man bracket (I would like to see the numbers and growth prior to 2001-2002.  Maybe from the mid 80s through 2000, if there was growth prior to 32 man bracket be instated, we can rule that out as the reason for the growth!!!)
• Better more qualified coaches

 

Also, overall population growth.  Check this out:

http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/quick-facts/kentucky/population-growth#chart

I think we can all agree that no matter what the cause is growth is happening and that is a good thing.

I think we can all agree that no matter what the cause is growth is happening and that is a good thing.

 

WINNER!!!!!!!

I think one thing the 32 Man Bracket does is it gives a wrestler a chance, and hope.

My point is, if we were still at a 16 man bracket new kids, or kids on teams that are not well established, may not stick with it very long, seeing that if you do not attend a school that is in the Top 10 year in and year out, that you don’t have much of a chance at success. A kid may start wrestling, but if they feel like they do not have much of a chance at success, they may quit the sport too early. This does effect growth. Small or new teams may start, but if they cannot see a little success, the wrestlers may not come back and the program folds. The 32 Man Bracket gives everyone hope, and a small chance that they may succeed, this keeps the kids coming back for more growing the sport and increasing the level of competition. Some may see it as watered down, but I see it as growth.

Proof is, KY is putting more kids into college wrestling than ever, and more KY kids are getting noticed on a national level than ever.

Maybe one day soon we can go back to a 16 man bracket, but have at Regional, Semi State, State format, or one like it, but as of now, I believe we should keep it the way it is.

I think we can all agree that no matter what the cause is growth is happening and that is a good thing.

 

Definitely agree. The problem is if it's used to prove an idea that may or may not be true.

I think one thing the 32 Man Bracket does is it gives a wrestler a chance, and hope.

My point is, if we were still at a 16 man bracket new kids, or kids on teams that are not well established, may not stick with it very long, seeing that if you do not attend a school that is in the Top 10 year in and year out, that you don’t have much of a chance at success. A kid may start wrestling, but if they feel like they do not have much of a chance at success, they may quit the sport too early. This does effect growth. Small or new teams may start, but if they cannot see a little success, the wrestlers may not come back and the program folds. The 32 Man Bracket gives everyone hope, and a small chance that they may succeed, this keeps the kids coming back for more growing the sport and increasing the level of competition. Some may see it as watered down, but I see it as growth.

Proof is, KY is putting more kids into college wrestling than ever, and more KY kids are getting noticed on a national level than ever.

Maybe one day soon we can go back to a 16 man bracket, but have at Regional, Semi State, State format, or one like it, but as of now, I believe we should keep it the way it is.

Nailed it .

My point would be simple. Not evey wrestler is a number 1 or 2 seed which would take it down to 16 . The wrestling in Kentucky isn't big enough to hold a regional, then sectional, then state so why change it ? I really don't even understand why there is even a debate about this. Covington Catholic is coming aboard next year along with the chance for NCC also enterthing the ring. I can understand people wanting a seeded tournament but even if they kept it the way it is now the 1-4 and 2-3 would settle most the points about seeding and in every tournament yes there's going to be upsets. Not knocking any region but if region 6 draws some of the region (1) wrestlers I don't care what the seeds are I could very easily see some region (6) 4 seeds knocking off there 1 seeds (That's just an example)

 The important thing is that the word is spreading and getting into the middle schools (which is where my nephew got his start and when he started he wasn't very good he won 4 or 5 matches the whole season and right now he's 30-4 as a junior in high school) and the 32 man bracket certainly isn't hurting anything. Hope I'm not offending anyone about this but I've seen sports taken away by the khsaa and let me tell you it affected about 600 kids each year that played and now there isn't any interest for these kids to try something new. For the love of wrestling l hope there arn't too many debates. Debates cause seperations and seperations cause kids losing interest and that's what I never want to see happen .Let's not make this political !

I think the thirty two man bracket is a good thing.  When you take a first year wrestler to the High School State Tournament you can see the transformation in their eyes.  The kids see the opening ceremonies and it gets in their heads and they see what they can accomplish.  If they have and older brother who participates and makes state it makes the younger kid craves it that much more.  The high school wrestlers working with the younger wrestlers is a good thing too.  The younger wrestlers look up to the older ones and want to be just like them.  I think KY wrestling has a good thing going on right now. I hope it continues to grow like crazy!

The sport is growing in Kentucky.....If it's NOT broke then don't fix it.....The 32 man bracket is perfect for this state and its current growth....For those of you with hopes of changing it like other states just leave it alone.  You obviously want to stir the pot because we are not like Ohio or not like Indiana.....Guess what, We are Kentucky and it is working just fine right now.   Enjoy what we have now and allow the coaches to continue the growth through their youth programs and community.  Thanks to all the coaches out there that promote this sport and have made Kentucky on the levels of the bigger states....Transfers from other states have only helped make our best even better and competitive with the best in the nation.....Transfers happen all over the country everyday in bigger states...it happens...people move and some come HOME....Glad to have you all back HOME....You are Kentucky boys and something to be proud of !   We could field 2 or 3 full teams of studs that could compete with anyone and it just keeps getting better here in this state....LEAVE IT ALONE and enjoy !

Just My opinion, but i feel that off season wrestling and teams extending there wrestling season has helped to grow wrestling in KY. It's giving more opportunity for kids to try it.

Just My opinion, but i feel that off season wrestling and teams extending there wrestling season has helped to grow wrestling in KY. It's giving more opportunity for kids to try it.

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner!  Excellent opinion Coach Smith, and in my opinion it's more than an opinion.  It's fact!

Ok Ill give my 2 cents worth on this debate since

= I have been involved in Kentucky Wrestling since 1983

= Lived through a state tournament that has seen the following brackets

    1 16 man pull through

    2 A Semi State then 8 man bracket

    3 A regular region then 16 man bracket

    4 The current format of Region then 32 man bracket

= Been a wrestler, coach and referee

= One of the orginal middle school coaches before 2000

 

I believe growth has come from many angles (ie more and better coaches, a larger bracket, and middle school wrestling)

 

Back in the late 80's and early 90's, wrestling was becoming in danger of losing its KHSAA sponsorship, due to things like title 9, programs that couldnt qualify for the state tournament because they were in such a loaded region and semi state that kids, coaches and adminstrations just gave up. And there was a growing concern that wrestling was taking away from football because of massive weight cutting (ie Top football coaches like Bob Redman, Owen Hauck, Joe Jaggers, and thier loyal followers) Also the disappearance of the 3 sport athlete and the social status of being an athlete started to effect the sport.

 

I remember the debate and first year of the 32man bracket, ( I was not a fan especially the first day there was just a lot of bad wrestling and even a couple byes in the first round) But you saw something that lead to growth. Programs that only had 1 or 2 qualifers started to have 5-6 then all of a sudden 10- 11 to where it felt like they had a whole team there. Schools from the outer regions of the state started to bring back or add their programs because it was worth it for them because instead of only having 1 or 2 kids to travel to Louisville or Frankfort, they had 7-10

 

Middle school wrestling became very important to growth because it got kids hooked earlier in age so it became something more fun to do. Middle school wrestling has been around for a long time. When I first coached it It was the Oldhams, Woodford, Crosby (the team I coached) Campbell, Hopkinsville, Union and a few other schools or clubs. Our schedule would wrestle teams from southern Indiana and tournaments at different places like Woodford, Floyd Central and Hopkinsville. Finally after a long give and take with the addition of many programs there was a state tournament and the explosion of middle school and elementary programs was on. Wrestling has become more of a way of life in many more famlies and areas of the state. Wrestling was able to then compete with up and coming sports like soccer lacrosse, winter training for baseball and football.

 

More and better coaches has been a big help also, you see more alumi coming back and contributing to the sport. (heck for a while , Larue County was the offical training HS for referees) But most importanly the new generation of coaches have been able to carry on and improve on ideas from the older generations of coaches like Chris McCoy has done a great job of promoting the sport after taking over for Phil Coomes. This younger bread of coaches in KY also seem to have more college wrestling experiance and more time personaly on the mat.

 

Now here are a couple of points that havent really been mentioned but are very important

First the addition of small college programs at Cumberland, Campbellsville and Lindsey Wilson have added interest and a new fan base. If schools like NKU, Pikeville and Bellermine could add programs it would be huge for this state. And if UK or UL or even EKU or WKU added the sport then it would progress by light years. College programs add the opportunity for higher levels of training, adds more coaches to the state and gives more opportunity for kids to wrestle past high school where back in my day the closest program was Miami of Ohio , Carson Newman or Mt St Joes.

 

Now finally my last point and many may not aggree with this. Weight management has become better. Because of changes in the rules, weight cutting has become de-emphasized. When I wrestled we had kids lose up to 30 to 40 pounds over a wrestling season to race to a lower weight class to alomost unhealthy levels. Football coaches became disenchanted with the sport and believed in the myth that wrestling was stunting the growth of football players. Long gone are the days where Friday night all the saunas and steam rooms were filled with wrestlers wearing plastic and a wardrobe of old sweats, then getting to a 2 hour track meet during weigh ins. Kids now wrestle closer to their natural weight. More emphasis on conditioning than missed meals. Try to recriut for a sport where a high school kid might have to miss some meals. Wrestling has become more healthy. I know some of the old hard core people will always say weight cutting was an important part of the sport but now we have become smarter in our ways and rules. We have a different breed of kid today and to tell them that they have to loose weight so they can participate has chased kids away. Football coaches are coming back on board to the sport of wrestling because of conditioning and changes in weight management. So there are more athletes that are trying the sport with their coach's blessing.

 

The most exciting part of wrestling in Ky is now where we can go from here. 

Wow an interesting post with lots of insight and good points , not sure about the weight cutting and KYs decent plan ,it's not healthy or as safe as other states and it keep kids down longer , and on NKY there are no small schools in college with wrestling and it has grown so I don't think the colleges have anything to do with it in that part of the state .

Southern Ohio has helped the Nky area a ton because its easy to just go across the river for great comp, we used to do that in Jefferson Co until we became better as an area than them. I even remember when the Northern Ky school would come over to New Albany. Kinda sad to see a decline in Southern Indiana wrestling especially New Albany. Mpire  I know you agree with me that good competition will always mean growth.

Yes I agree it will force kids to improve and learn which in turn will spread that knowledge skill technique to other Ky kids ,

Still like to see some

Of the top schools hit the super big tournys or at least one hint hint ".Schools hitting those bigger tournys or travelling out of state , "Not just across the river " will enhance the sport throughout the state , not sure of travelling rules , funds or what goes with it just of the fact it will help , and from my experience with kids it really gives them something to remember the farther the go TE more exiting it gets for them , If I were a coach and could pull it off I would take my kids on at least one long distance trip for a tourny they would be the talk of the tourny and it could draw teams from there back to Ky , networking , on all

Levels itight even open up the eyes of college coaches far away to some ky kids ,

Didn't mean to stray just think travelling is good for kids " no smart comments needed " seriously kids like seeing new sights new styles and a trip would give a team something to talk about back at school raising interest increasing numbers .

There are

Lots of things that can be done to help growth , more tournys in state and regions , like the Rumble and the Dragon which I have not seen .

Boost things up liven them up , of I ran the state tournament the finals would be like they are but kida would walk out through fog , lights and flashpods , people would comment and make silly remarks in other states while their kida would watch our finals and their hearts wouldn sink thinking how Boring their own states finals are , like some have said this is Ky not any other state do what is best or funnest for here ,

So many years I have heard the main problem with growing wrestling as a sport is its boredom , no cheerleaders no bands no pomp but it's twice as hard , not really fair to our and all the kids who wrestle , I would blow it up huge music lights and yes call it a sideshow or whatever , every kid in the state would be wanting to wrestle and make it to state , and of course I would have about a four foot tall eagle trophy with about a six foot wingspan for champs lol no just team

Champs , rings are cool though .

I know I drifted and none of this will ever happen , but I am a strange person actually shy but a showman at heart I know it would make wrestling in Ky huge .

Mpire, wish you could have seen and been a part of the atmosphere when the State Tournament was held in Frankfort. Smaller arena, but we filled it out. The crowd was amped before and during the finals. While the workers were setting up for the finals, the music was blaring, the crowd was hitting around beach balls, toilet paper was flying, people were dancing, it was nuts. The face offs would give you chills. Then the main event started. The contestants would report to the mat, the lights would dim all the way down, the spotlight came on, it was awesome man. The crowd seemed like they were right on top of you. Gettin chills just thinking about it.

Kind of

My point imagine that all jacked up with fog lights flashpods whatever in a bigger arena , it would be spectacular , I know the feel you are trying to convey , Iron Man is crowded like that without the pomp , I like the beach balls youth kids painted up crasy atmosphere , I'm getting a Mohawk purple and gold and painting an X surrounded by an 0 with an x through it on my chest I mean shirt to old and fat for that .

Hope everyone has fun hitting me with beach balls , I read some got a kick out of it last year I'm bringing my pocket knife to popem

And two heavy duty squirt guns one full of purple and one full of gold Kool aid , and every one gets a drink hahahahahahahha