I know I dont coach MS any more but I keep a close tab. Here are a few questions since the state is considering a Middle school athletic association ( I doubt they will but you can never know)

 

1 What will happen to the wrestling association if the state sponsors a middle school wrestling tournament?

2. What will happen to club teams like Fern Creek, River City and others. Im sure that if the state takes over, everything will be ran at the scholastic level.

3. Will there be changes in things like weight classes

 

interesting things could happen if the state gets involved.

What part of the state is looking at taking over MS sports?

The KHSAA has reportedly been doing SEVERAL rounds of calculations and what-not. Eventually, they will more than likely take over middle school sports in KY. I know TN, OH, and IN all do this, and several officials I know would like it if the KHSAA did take over.

 

We all know much of what is done in this state concerning athletics is tied to $$$...and from what I've seen with my involvement in athletics here in KY... I will predict within 5 years if not sooner the KHSAA will have taken over Middle School athletics.

Well that will probely mess things up. Government makes a mess of everything

From what i have been getting out of the meeting going on about this, KHSAA does not want anything to do with it. They would loose $$, not make. It's the cost of liaibility and governing the MS sports. Also KY MS/Youth Wrestling Associations are way ahead of the curve in KY with how they are organized. A good person to ask or comment about this would be Adam Lantman. He is very active with the board.

Wonder if OURWAY or OAC types will step in?

I like the way Middle School is ran.  I wish the youth would take this approach.  Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea if an organization like OAC came in and ran a true youth in the state!

I like the way Middle School is ran. I wish the youth would take this approach. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea if an organization like OAC came in and ran a true youth in the state!

. The name o the organization is less important than the heart and desire of the people running it. What would you like to see changed?

This isn't my first time on this soap box.  IMO our regional tournament is nothing more than a fund raiser and our state tournament is just another tournament.  How can you call someone a state champ if they do not go against the best kids at their weight in their age group?  It is time to make the regional tournament a qualifier for state.  

One thing I'd like to see changed I'd how the team champ is determined at state. If your Ryle you know your going to win it because you show up with so many kids. I think maybe each team should choose a certain amount of wrestlers to be your point makers. Say 15 kids? That would give alot more clubs a chance to win. Instead of The team that shows up with the most kids has the best chance to win.

This is at the youth level Im talking about

One thing I'd like to see changed I'd how the team champ is determined at state. If your Ryle you know your going to win it because you show up with so many kids. I think maybe each team should choose a certain amount of wrestlers to be your point makers. Say 15 kids? That would give alot more clubs a chance to win. Instead of The team that shows up with the most kids has the best chance to win.

It's a myth that the Raiders have won state based on having the most kids. They've also averaged the highest points per participant the last few years as well.

I won't dispute that they have great kids and coach's. Just seems it would more far way of determining team champ.

One thing I'd like to see changed I'd how the team champ is determined at state. If your Ryle you know your going to win it because you show up with so many kids. I think maybe each team should choose a certain amount of wrestlers to be your point makers. Say 15 kids? That would give alot more clubs a chance to win. Instead of The team that shows up with the most kids has the best chance to win.

This is at the youth level Im talking about

Also, we probably need to get the team scores back before we change how they are computed. The "association" voted to not keep team scores and give team awards at youth state.

One thing I'd like to see changed I'd how the team champ is determined at state. If your Ryle you know your going to win it because you show up with so many kids. I think maybe each team should choose a certain amount of wrestlers to be your point makers. Say 15 kids? That would give alot more clubs a chance to win. Instead of The team that shows up with the most kids has the best chance to win.

This is at the youth level Im talking about

Also, we probably need to get the team scores back before we change how they are computed. The "association" voted to not keep team scores and give team awards at youth state.

Yea

. The name o the organization is less important than the heart and desire of the people running it. What would you like to see changed?

One thing I'd like to see changed back is the prevention of kids who place at middle school state from competing at youth state. I haven't seen the results, but I think 4 or 5 kids that placed at the 70lb weight class at middle school are youth aged kids. There could have been some great competition at the youth tournament amongst these kids, but now they're forced to sit and watch. I just don't understand taking opportunities away from kids to compete against other kids of the same age and weight.

Raidercoach, just a question, not an arguement. Would u feel the same if a 7th grade kid placed at high school State, and came back and competed the next year at the middle school level?

It's hard to call it a state championship when your not allowing kids that are eligible to participate .

One thing I'd like to see changed back is the prevention of kids who place at middle school state from competing at youth state. I haven't seen the results, but I think 4 or 5 kids that placed at the 70lb weight class at middle school are youth aged kids. There could have been some great competition at the youth tournament amongst these kids, but now they're forced to sit and watch. I just don't understand taking opportunities away from kids to compete against other kids of the same age and weight.

I agree. If their 12 and under I think they should be eligible to compete. I think Holub and maybe Horton are the ones that wouldn't be eligible by age but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure the rest of the 70lbers are under 12 but again I could be wrong. I know Blue didn't place but hes only 9. So if he would've placed he would have to sit it out as a 9 year old by only a few months. So next year (if he places which I think he will) he would have to sit out as a 10 year old. That would suck.

Raidercoach, just a question, not an arguement. Would u feel the same if a 7th grade kid placed at high school State, and came back and competed the next year at the middle school level?

 

Absolutely.  There is no harm in letting a kid who has earned the right to wrestle both to do so. 

I agree. If their 12 and under I think they should be eligible to compete. I think Holub and maybe Horton are the ones that wouldn't be eligible by age but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure the rest of the 70lbers are under 12 but again I could be wrong. I know Blue didn't place but hes only 9. So if he would've placed he would have to sit it out as a 9 year old by only a few months. So next year (if he places which I think he will) he would have to sit out as a 10 year old. That would suck.

 

I'm only speculating because I don't have the data, but I bet this new rule only impacts a couple of weights.  It would be very rare to get a kid that is youth aged that can place at middle school state at weight classes above 80lbs.  One solution would be if the middle school people don't want this problem is they can just eliminate the 70 and 75 lb weight classes from middle school.  I don't like this solution, but it would probably solve what they are trying to solve.  Just looking around the state and specifically Northern Kentucky, there are a ton of stud youth kids from 65-75lbs.  This year at middle school state, all 4 of the kids in the semifinals were from Northern Kentucky and 3 of them were youth aged.  Not to mention, there were some hammers that didn't even qualify to state because of the depth up here.  I know of at least one placer at 75 that is youth aged.      

This isn't my first time on this soap box.  IMO our regional tournament is nothing more than a fund raiser and our state tournament is just another tournament.  How can you call someone a state champ if they do not go against the best kids at their weight in their age group?  It is time to make the regional tournament a qualifier for state.  

I don't think the #'s warrant a qualifer yet, but we're getting close.  I also don't think regionals are a good qualifier when some regions are significantly bigger and more developed.  I'd prefer to scratch regions and appoint a few established youth tournaments as qualifiers, similar to Tournament of Champions.  At least until the smaller regions get their #'s up.

 

I think the best solution to making the tournament more competitve is 16 man brackets and don't prohibit MS placers from attending.      

I don't think the #'s warrant a qualifer yet, but we're getting close.  I also don't think regionals are a good qualifier when some regions are significantly bigger and more developed.  I'd prefer to scratch regions and appoint a few established youth tournaments as qualifiers, similar to Tournament of Champions.  At least until the smaller regions get their #'s up.

 

I think the best solution to making the tournament more competitve is 16 man brackets and don't prohibit MS placers from attending.      

 

That was the original design of the elementary regional tournaments. They were to be 6 regional tournaments throughout the state on different weekends and to be eligible to wrestle the elementary state tournament a youth needed to wrestle one of them.  In addition, this would give the elementary programs kind of an elementary season.  With the 5 to 10 year plan to be you would have to place in one of the regional to quality for state and you would be seeded based on overall tournament score.  (TOC) “Wheels on the bus go round and round.”

JCB,

You are correct...it feels like we keep fighting over the same things which brings up the real problem with our youth association. We need to work together to create a constitution filled with bylaws that are created to help us hit our goals as an association. We always fight over the same issues with every new crop of coaches and parents get involved with our sport. Then they move on to middle school and high school and the new crop behind them fight over the same things....it is insanity by definition.

Instead of everyone fighting over team scores, regional qualifiers, weight classes, blah, blah, blah, we need to decide what we want to accomplish as an association? I've maintained our goals should be very different from those at middle school. We are introducing this sport to families, many of whom are deciding if our product is worthy of their time, money, and effort. We lose kids every year because parents don't like the disorganization at tournaments and other reasons that don't have anything to do with what we always fight over. Has anyone lost a good wrestler to another sport because a family disagrees with 10% rule? Probably not.

It appears a lot of people want to make the youth state tournament more competitive and let's face it, more prestigious to win by having set weight classes and regional qualifiers. I think that would be great, but it will come at a cost of preventing kids from experiencing the spectacle of state, which I believe helps grow the sport. Are we at the point where making the state tournament more competitive is more important than continuing the growth? I don't know, but we should answer that question before we turn our 1000 kid state tournament at the horse park into a 200 kid tournament at a middle school gym.

Oh and those giving grief to Ranger, I've been there! I will say this though: he's very intelligent, he's done more for wrestling in this state than just about anyone, he means well, and he is a really nice guy. He is in a thankless job and probably only hears complaining 99% of the time. In his position it is hard to decipher between who really are committed to improving things and who just want to whine, especially on a message board. My advice would be to talk to him face to face. You'll find right away that he's a good dude. So leave Poobah alone for a while so he can get some new rankings out.

I 100% think we need a different set up for our youth state tournament. I like the way WV holds there's. 16 men brackets that have the top 8 seeded I believe. This way you have true state champions. Have a few(say 5-8) qualifying tournaments and no regionals. Seed according to record and head to head match ups. I know there's problems with all ideas. But this is the way WV holds there's and they very rarely have any problems. I also think the awards need to be a little better. I really like the middle school awards there nice and also a bracket. But this is just my opinion.

Raider falls victim to the iphone double post. I agree raider. Had a long talk with your bro about the goals of the youth association. The organization needs well defined and stated goals so we can all get on board (myself included).

Raider falls victim to the iphone double post. I agree raider. Had a long talk with your bro about the goals of the youth association. The organization needs well defined and stated goals so we can all get on board (myself included).

Darn thing drives me crazy. By the way, congrats on another dominating state tournament.

I'll give my 2 cents worth.<br />My son won 5 youth titles in the past. His last one was when he was a 5th grader, just turned 10 at the time. He also that same year was MS State runner-up. I let him wrestle in the youth tournament that year because he wanted to wrestle with his teammates (his youth team that he's been with the past 6 years) one more year/one last time. Plus he was a true youth kid. He was 5th grade and was only 10 as I stated, and his little brain acted and thought like a 10 year old. He really didn't get the whole MS placing vs wrestling in youth state back then. He finished 2nd at MS state last year as a 6th grader, but chose not to wrestle at youth state. He has matured enough to know the level of competition is different at both of these events. Now, I'm not saying that youth is second to MS, but he is just realized it's time to move on.<br />Two years later, he won his first MS title this past Saturday (he is 7th grader now), he just did turn 13 a few days, he is still eligible to compete at the youth state tournament. Would it be fair to put my kid in this event. Not saying my kid would win it or that he is all that, but I do feel he is a pretty sound and solid wrestler. My point is, where do we decide who should be wrestling at the youth state. Yes I think is great to get all the kids there to make it very competitive, but the youth league is pretty much a developmental league to get kids interested in the sport of wrestling. I think its great to get these younger kids in the youth state. Its about them. If I was a new a parent and my kid was fairly new to the sport, I don't know that I would want him to face a Ryan Moore or any other kid at that kind of level, competing against my child. Yes I know, you have to eventually make your child understand that they will have to face tough competition to win a big event. Gives them something to work towards (to be the best, you have to beat the best) I think there are other events for this stuff like that. But to get kids involved, to keep kids and parents involved, to make them be excited about wrestling in the youth state is what its all about. I also agree, that there will be a time when we will have to go to a qualifier to get in the youth state. Are where there yet, IDK?! I personally think there needs to be a separation from youth to middle school, especially based on the level of competition per event / per kid. How do we do this???<br />

I'll give my 2 cents worth.<br />My son won 5 youth titles in the past. His last one was when he was a 5th grader, just turned 10 at the time. He also that same year was MS State runner-up. I let him wrestle in the youth tournament that year because he wanted to wrestle with his teammates (his youth team that he's been with the past 6 years) one more year/one last time. Plus he was a true youth kid. He was 5th grade and was only 10 as I stated, and his little brain acted and thought like a 10 year old. He really didn't get the whole MS placing vs wrestling in youth state back then. He finished 2nd at MS state last year as a 6th grader, but chose not to wrestle at youth state. He has matured enough to know the level of competition is different at both of these events. Now, I'm not saying that youth is second to MS, but he is just realized it's time to move on.<br />Two years later, he won his first MS title this past Saturday (he is 7th grader now), he just did turn 13 a few days, he is still eligible to compete at the youth state tournament. Would it be fair to put my kid in this event. Not saying my kid would win it or that he is all that, but I do feel he is a pretty sound and solid wrestler. My point is, where do we decide who should be wrestling at the youth state. Yes I think is great to get all the kids there to make it very competitive, but the youth league is pretty much a developmental league to get kids interested in the sport of wrestling. I think its great to get these younger kids in the youth state. Its about them. If I was a new a parent and my kid was fairly new to the sport, I don't know that I would want him to face a Ryan Moore or any other kid at that kind of level, competing against my child. Yes I know, you have to eventually make your child understand that they will have to face tough competition to win a big event. Gives them something to work towards (to be the best, you have to beat the best) I think there are other events for this stuff like that. But to get kids involved, to keep kids and parents involved, to make them be excited about wrestling in the youth state is what its all about. I also agree, that there will be a time when we will have to go to a qualifier to get in the youth state. Are where there yet, IDK?! I personally think there needs to be a separation from youth to middle school, especially based on the level of competition per event / per kid. How do we do this???<br />

Well said coach!!! You said what I wanted to say but I just didn't know how to put it.

I think MS place-finishers should be able to compete at youth if they are still age eligible.  We already balance this by placing the youth kids into four separate age divisions (this year: 2000/01, 2002/03, 2004/05 and 2006/07) so that you don't have a 3rd grader competing against a 7th grader at youth state.  If a 5th grader places 4th at MS state, having been beaten out by 7th/8th graders, shouldn't that kid get a chance for a youth state championship by beating kids roughly his own age/grade?

 

Also given the age breakouts, I would like to see youth state as a qualified event with full 16 man brackets.  I understand the issues as outlined by others with regard to large vs small regions, but there has to be a way to make this work.

I don't think the #'s warrant a qualifer yet, but we're getting close.  I also don't think regionals are a good qualifier when some regions are significantly bigger and more developed.  I'd prefer to scratch regions and appoint a few established youth tournaments as qualifiers, similar to Tournament of Champions.  At least until the smaller regions get their #'s up.

 

I think the best solution to making the tournament more competitve is 16 man brackets and don't prohibit MS placers from attending.      

 

I like the idea of 16 man brackets.  We just need to give it a try and see how it all plays out.  16 man brackets would give you 40% fewer brackets and would make it more competitive.

 

If you want to make it a YOUTH STATE keep all 7th and 8th graders out regardless of age.  In all other sports its okay to play up just not down.  

 

We are on the right track.  Its time to put the plan into motion.

16 man brackets will solve making the state tournament more competitive. We cranked out what it would have looked like last year and there would have been some great brackets. The only remaining question is the issue of qualifying tournaments. Using regionals just doesn't make sense yet. Pick four or five tournaments and make kids attend (and possibly place in at least one of them) to qualify for state. I still like including everyone at youth state for now, but that's just my opinion.

Louisville

I understand your point. I don't disagree, however what if you have a 5th grader that places top 2 in MS State and was beating those 7th and 8th graders. Now he wrestles youth state with his own age group 2000 and 2001 birth year. Yes the age groups are fair based on this only IMO, but the level or skill of competition maybe/could be so far ahead of the other kids.

What do we need to do to make this better for ALL the kids at the youth level (State tournament level)

Just a question? I don't have the right or wrong answer to this. Just trying to brain storm and see what is the best option for all the kids.

Louisville

I understand your point. I don't disagree, however what if you have a 5th grader that places top 2 in MS State and was beating those 7th and 8th graders. Now he wrestles youth state with his own age group 2000 and 2001 birth year. Yes the age groups are fair based on this only IMO, but the level or skill of competition maybe/could be so far ahead of the other kids.

What do we need to do to make this better for ALL the kids at the youth level (State tournament level)

Just a question? I don't have the right or wrong answer to this. Just trying to brain storm and see what is the best option for all the kids.

There are studs at every level that make it appear unfair watching them hammer the competition. However, this is always the exception. Every time I saw Miguel Merritt wrestle in high school, I thought to myself "this isn't fair". However, it never gets more fair than at the youth level where the kids are guaranteed to be as close in age and weight as it will ever be if they continue to wrestle. At the end of the day, give the kid the choice. Your son elected to skip one year and that is commendable, but that choice my not be for everyone. Congrats by the way! He's a chip off the old block.

I would add that most likely the kid that placed 2nd or 4th at MS State, probably already has one...if not more than one, Youth State title. What would they have to prove to himself? I applaude the kids, parents and coaches that realize the kids need to wrestle to the competition that will push the kid, once that has past....move on. Did you see Mark Hall wrestle MS State when he as at Ryle? Nope, but everyone knows he would have won a MS State Title though. He had bigger fish to fry. The Lawson's have bigger fish to fry. I commend them for that. Move up and move on.

I would add that most likely the kid that placed 2nd or 4th at MS State, probably already has one...if not more than one, Youth State title. What would they have to prove to himself? I applaude the kids, parents and coaches that realize the kids need to wrestle to the competition that will push the kid, once that has past....move on. Did you see Mark Hall wrestle MS State when he as at Ryle? Nope, but everyone knows he would have won a MS State Title though. He had bigger fish to fry. The Lawson's have bigger fish to fry. I commend them for that. Move up and move on.

True but at the same time a multiple olympic gold medal athlete is competing in HS just to be apart of the team she grew up with.

 

True but at the same time a multiple olympic gold medal athlete is competing in HS just to be apart of the team she grew up with.

There are exceptions to everything. I do agree with raidercoach...it should be up to the kid, parent and coach. IMO...if it were my kid, and he or she were that good at wrestling...I would sit them out. But, everyone should have that choice and not be bashed for making the choice that is best for them.

I think it comes down to the goal of the event. I think the focus today is growth and numbers. In this case I like the current approach. Yes we hold out a handful of kids but allow many others a better chance at success and taking home a medal. If competition becomes part of the goal then let them make their choice.

Ranger,  I have sent into this forum on several occasions the bylaws from the Youth organization which were also passed along to Kyle Goldsmith but they are MIA.  Can you resurrect them and respost?

 

Mlee is exactly right, as Youth parents move to Middle the same issues are rehatched that were dealt with years ago.  The biggest mistake I made when writing the bylaws was having a new President every two years, too short in my opinion now to bridge the gap of parent/coaches moving from one level to the next.

 

Ranger help the Youth coaches out here and find those bylaws.

I think it comes down to the goal of the event. I think the focus today is growth and numbers. In this case I like the current approach. Yes we hold out a handful of kids but allow many others a better chance at success and taking home a medal. If competition becomes part of the goal then let them make their choice.

The focus from day one was always growth and numbers,  nothing new there.  The growth of middle school wrestling obviously stems from youth wrestling.

I think it comes down to the goal of the event. I think the focus today is growth and numbers. In this case I like the current approach. Yes we hold out a handful of kids but allow many others a better chance at success and taking home a medal. If competition becomes part of the goal then let them make their choice.

 

Well said Ranger. Just my opinion, but I was there when The MS Assoc was started and our goal then was to grow the sport. We did and changed the rules/by-laws as we came along to make it more competitive. I can honestly say we have a great MS assoc even compared to other states.

 

5 years later and 5 years ago we started the Youth assoc. and of course are having growing pains, because its like starting over each year because coaches move up. Again our goal was and is to get youth interested in wrestling at a young age and I believe the assoc has done its job when you get 1000 kids at a state tournament. There has been some talk about combining the assoc's to combat this problem.

 

I would say that if more coaches would take the time to attend the Assoc meetings, We would have a better understanding of what the Assoc has to do and has done.

I would say that if more coaches would take the time to attend the Assoc meetings, We would have a better understanding of what the Assoc has to do and has done.

 

Why are the meetings limited to coaches?  If you opened it up to parents that are interested in helping you could have more input and more help.  I will never be a coach or ever claim to be one.  I'm just one of those parents that like to be involved with my child's growth.  When you close the door to 90% of the people you are pushing away a lot of ideas.

Why are the meetings limited to coaches?  If you opened it up to parents that are interested in helping you could have more input and more help.  I will never be a coach or ever claim to be one.  I'm just one of those parents that like to be involved with my child's growth.  When you close the door to 90% of the people you are pushing away a lot of ideas.

 

 

I say that because that is all that shows up, and very few at that. But it is an open meeting and we do have others come.

Why are the meetings limited to coaches? If you opened it up to parents that are interested in helping you could have more input and more help. I will never be a coach or ever claim to be one. I'm just one of those parents that like to be involved with my child's growth. When you close the door to 90% of the people you are pushing away a lot of ideas.

Opening the state meetings up to non coaches could cause problems. I attended a boone county pee wee fb boosters meeting one year where a group of parents were upset over a specific issue and they showed up with a lynch mob mentality. It was counter productive to say the least and county police had to show up and babysit.

Good point coach smith. I've never seen anyone turned away from the meeting. But generally it is a sparsely attended meeting of head coaches and a few guys who help out. I would suggest you talk with your teams coach and know what to expect.

I say that because that is all that shows up, and very few at that. But it is an open meeting and we do have others come.

Should have read the whole thread before my previous reply. ;-)

While I respect the people that attend the meetings, I don't think just because a handful of people show up to a meeting they should have the right to make significant changes to the mysteriously missing youth by-laws. What's the point of having by-laws if we can't easily access them to guide our decisions and if they can be changed so easily?

Well, it's not like they are top secret, but i can't find mine either!

There is this new thing called the Internet (from what I hear, it is taking off).  It could allow coaches to vote on important issues with something called "Email".  Just a thought.   

There is this new thing called the Internet (from what I hear, it is taking off).  It could allow coaches to vote on important issues with something called "Email".  Just a thought.  

 

 

That doesn't work either.  Middle School sends out Proxy ballots every year before the fall meeting.  I think the most that was returned was 5 one year, and then about 25 coaches showed up at the meeting.  

There is this new thing called the Internet (from what I hear, it is taking off).  It could allow coaches to vote on important issues with something called "Email".  Just a thought.   

You are on it.  Still waiting to get one of those.

I think just like everything else, participation at the meetings and voting will increase as the association grows. In the past, many people never felt compelled to attend because no drastic changes were ever proposed, at least at youth. We had things going good, there wasn't a need to change anything. Now all of a sudden, everyone wants to make significant changes so, I at least, feel its important to be there. It's always better to be there in person to communicate not just your vote, but also "why". We found that out at the last meeting regarding doing away with the team scores. Some of the coaches who voted to do away with team scores realized that teams did use the state team score as motivation to recruit and drive numbers to the state tournament. I think had everyone heard that from the other coaches' mouths, no way that vote would have been approved. Having said that, emailing your vote in should still be an option.

When the last time a meeting was held in the West, East or South East KY? Hold a meeting in Wayne County and see how many people from NKY or Louisville attend.

 

Put the internet to use and when you do not get a response try using the good old reliable phone. Each Region has a respective let him make the calls.

 

However, for this to work the association would need to have a good networking system in place. Currently I feel the elementary association has disenfranchised many (MOST VOTERS from West, East and Southeast KY) voters.  

While I respect the people that attend the meetings, I don't think just because a handful of people show up to a meeting they should have the right to make significant changes to the mysteriously missing youth by-laws. What's the point of having by-laws if we can't easily access them to guide our decisions and if they can be changed so easily?

 

Found the by-laws, i'll keep searching for a more recent one

youth_wrestling_bylaws_2008-2009.pdf

Found the by-laws, i'll keep searching for a more recent one

Thank you sir.

Good job Keith.

The middle school association has hosted meetings in each region over the last couple years and it did not affect participation. Only resulted in the board doing a lot more driving. There is a fine line between participation and babysitting there jcb. It should not take a personal phone call to get coaches to participate.

Have you considered having a post-season tournament on Sat. and hold the meeting Fri. night. or Sunday after the tournament.  I have to drive 3 1/2 hrs for a meeting that might take 2hrs. 

Found the by-laws, i'll keep searching for a more recent one

Thanks Coach!

Good job Keith.

The middle school association has hosted meetings in each region over the last couple years and it did not affect participation. Only resulted in the board doing a lot more driving. There is a fine line between participation and babysitting there jcb. It should not take a personal phone call to get coaches to participate.

 

Let me be frank.  The middle school association has done a fine job overall in my assessment. I give it a grand of B+ to A-.    The only concerns I have are related to cost, regarding the AAU cards and hosting events (district) (450.00 dollars).  Requiring the middle teams to have a 2^nd, secondary insurance is close to the definition of insanity. (Extreme foolishness or an act that demonstrates such foolishness)  District 8 this year had about 80 wrestlers. You tell me how does a school make a profit with that kind of number with the cost of the event and officials?   Bottom line this is a rural / urban issues with the rural being somewhat disenfranchised. 

 

On the subject of making personal phone call I agree with youth that is should not take a personal phone call to get participation.  However, I do believe participation could be greatly increase by the use of the internet and affect network system.  If any association is not getting the feedback it needs I would thing the place to begin would be to verify the network system. Here is where I think personal phone calls need to be made to update the network. 

 

However, the elementary association I feel had been use for individual gain (team benefit) and has may concerns.  That was the direction of my comments. 

 

I do want to thank you for the job you did at the MS State Tournament and with all the hard work you put in to the ranking. “ I would bet you make personal calls to get that information.”  Just have some fun. Thanks

Ha ha. Not many calls in the recent past. Actually don't even get as many emails anymore.

$450 included all of the awards and took the responsibility and work off the host. Believe me it didn't make life any easier on board members as we drove trophies and medals around the state. This also allowed us to bring consistency to all of the awards across our post season events and provide every qualifying kid a top notch award.

I can't speak for every host; I'm sure there are differences everywhere around who gets what but here is a simple breakdown off the top of my head. $450 host fee, 3 officials for $500. Any other cost should be minimal if any. At $10 per kid entry fee you will cover most of your costs even with only 80 kids. So gate and concessions generates profit. Will it be huge? Maybe not in the smaller district/region but you should make something.

Rural western ky is growing like crazy in ms. Huge numbers and new teams. Lexington as well.

Not sure what you mean by aau and 2nd secondary insurance. We use USA wrestling and that is it. Tournaments do need to be sanctioned but that is covered for the post season.

The bylaws are and have been on the kyswa.org website. At the top click on "Forms/Notes" and you will see them on the page that opens.

That's where my 5 match rule rants came from .

The bylaws are and have been on the kyswa.org website. At the top click on "Forms/Notes" and you will see them on the page that opens.

That's where my 5 match rule rants came from .

The "missing" bylaws they are referring to are youth.

The bylaws are and have been on the kyswa.org website. At the top click on "Forms/Notes" and you will see them on the page that opens.

That's where my 5 match rule rants came from .

 

Those are for middle school....the one's we were after are for youth.   

Why can't you have team scores and create divisions? Seems like it would solve both problems.

Go back x amount of years and look at how many kids each team brought. Sort from greatest amount of kids to least (on average). Divide that in half. Anyone who falls below the mark is in small team. Anyone above is in big team. Re-evaluate the numbers on a continual basis.

If you want to have team scores you need to only score 9-10 & 11 & 12 groups and set an X number of weight classes. Take the data (number of wrestlers) you have divide by 16(32) will get you the number of brackets. Use the 10% & 2 years to group the brackets. Have the younger age groups be exhibition.

You could keep team scores like some college tourneys. You enter as many as you want but select the 12 ( or whatever number is determined bu the association) that you expect to score the highest before the tourney begins. Then only those points are used to calculate team scores.

Let me be frank.  The middle school association has done a fine job overall in my assessment. I give it a grand of B+ to A-.    The only concerns I have are related to cost, regarding the AAU cards and hosting events (district) (450.00 dollars).  Requiring the middle teams to have a 2^nd, secondary insurance is close to the definition of insanity. (Extreme foolishness or an act that demonstrates such foolishness)  District 8 this year had about 80 wrestlers. You tell me how does a school make a profit with that kind of number with the cost of the event and officials?   Bottom line this is a rural / urban issues with the rural being somewhat disenfranchised. 

 

On the subject of making personal phone call I agree with youth that is should not take a personal phone call to get participation.  However, I do believe participation could be greatly increase by the use of the internet and affect network system.  If any association is not getting the feedback it needs I would thing the place to begin would be to verify the network system. Here is where I think personal phone calls need to be made to update the network. 

 

However, the elementary association I feel had been use for individual gain (team benefit) and has may concerns.  That was the direction of my comments. 

 

I do want to thank you for the job you did at the MS State Tournament and with all the hard work you put in to the ranking. “ I would bet you make personal calls to get that information.”  Just have some fun. Thanks

When the Youth Assoc. was started I emailed every High School coach in the state asking for the names and #'s of their youth coach.  NOT ONE coach returned an email. 

 

Before the 1st Youth state tourney I had gathered a list of youth coaches from every person I could find.  Those that I had not heard from I personally called to make sure they had the info needed to sign up.  I recall only talking to 2 or 3 of all the coaches I called. 

 

Ranger is right, we shouldn't have to spend all our spare hours informing the uninformed when they have every available resource they need at their disposal.

When the Youth Assoc. was started I emailed every High School coach in the state asking for the names and #'s of their youth coach.  NOT ONE coach returned an email. 

 

Before the 1st Youth state tourney I had gathered a list of youth coaches from every person I could find.  Those that I had not heard from I personally called to make sure they had the info needed to sign up.  I recall only talking to 2 or 3 of all the coaches I called. 

 

Ranger is right, we shouldn't have to spend all our spare hours informing the uninformed when they have every available resource they need at their disposal.

 

Stan,

You & Ranger, and others have identify communication as a major area of concern in the Youth Wrestling Association however, when reasons and options are suggested they are attacked and dismissed. I am personally done with youth wrestling. But I would like to see it grow in such away that benefits high school wrestling through out KY. To do that the association will need more involvement from all areas of the state. I believe the association will need to use all meas necessary to increase involvement. Below are three areas that I feel can and needs to be addressed.

Technology: (internet, conference calls)

Meeting: (spring meeting on Saturday at the high school state tournament,during one of the beaks) (feed then they will come)

Disenfranchisement:

JCB,

 

I am no longer actively involved in Youth but feel like your concerns should be passed along to the current President.  I think your 1st two suggestions definitely need to be explored.  Don't have a clue about the last.

Stan,

You & Ranger, and others have identify communication as a major area of concern in the Youth Wrestling Association however, when reasons and options are suggested they are attacked and dismissed. I am personally done with youth wrestling. But I would like to see it grow in such away that benefits high school wrestling through out KY. To do that the association will need more involvement from all areas of the state. I believe the association will need to use all meas necessary to increase involvement. Below are three areas that I feel can and needs to be addressed.

Technology: (internet, conference calls)

Meeting: (spring meeting on Saturday at the high school state tournament,during one of the beaks) (feed then they will come)

Disenfranchisement:

Coaches are generally fed very well at KSWA meetings. Doesn't help for attendance. I also don't know that we could squeeze all the necessary business into a break.

We do need to explore ways to use technology although I do not feel it will be as a replacement for meeting attendance/participation.

I'm with stan, not sure what you mean by disenfranchisement.

Those are for middle school....the one's we were after are for youth.   

DOH!! My bad.

this topic went no where I really wanted to go but , I really only meant for it to be a middle school only discussion but Youth got involved soo. but here are some of my opinions from what comments have been said                            

 

Meetings: As a middle school and high school coach, coaching meetings were not my #1 issue, middle school coaching had 2x the paperwork and 3x the amount of meetings. I understand the need for organization but........ hear is my idea

#1 one general meeting in the fall to go over rule changes policy changes and maybe a coaches clinic

#2 at the district seed meeting , take time to go over improvements and possible changes, elect a district spokesman that goes to the spring meeting to speak on behalf of the district

#3 A late spring KWSA meeting of all district reps that goes over policy and a ballot that is emailed to all coaches to vote on issues or let just the district reps handle a voting proxy for the district

 

Weight Cert.

Since middle school doesntuse or try to afford fat testing this is what I would do

#1 I am a firm believer in a growth allowance and not for cutting weight at the middle school level, I suggest this

#2 Must make scratch weight 3x before Jan 1 so if you are a 70Lber, you must make 70lbs scratch 3x , have a form with opposing coaches and referees sig on each weigh in

#3 if a Kid doesnt make scratch because of injury then the first weigh in after Jan is his weight class , If a kid weighs 71lbs and its his first weigh in of the season then he is a 75lber

#4 After Jan if a kid has had all three weigh ins at the desired scratch weigh, he gets his 2lb allowance ex. your 70lber get to weigh 72lbs. If he doesnt get his 3 weigh ins then he is a 75lber and gets to weigh up to 77lbs

# If a kid has his first weigh in after Jan 1 he makes 70lbs on his first weign in , he is a 70 lber and get to be 72lbs after that weigh in. This must be his first weigh in of the season. If he doesnt make 70 , he is not eligible to wrestle 70.

 

Cost of tournament hosting

# 1 $450 seems high but I am in agreement of same trophies and awards for all districts and regions especially after what happened in Anderson Co last year.

# 2 As an orgination I would look for ways to lower the cost of this fee with out sacrificing the quality

 

USA Wrestling

#1 USA Wrestling is a great orginization and has come a long way under Keith Smith

#2 I understand the question about why do I need secondary insurance, but its not about protecting your kid or school, its about making sure everyone is covered under 1 umbrella from wrestlers to coaches, to referees and schools and clubs. school insurance doesnt cover competitions vs club teams like River City or Fern Creek. If everyone has USA wrestling insurance then everyone can wrestle everyone. Im about to finish my Rank 1 in athletic adminstation and I have learned so much about liability and insurance and realized you cant have enough.

#3 All officals should have USA officals cards, maybe the KY MS can help with this cost. If you are going to use a hybrid set of rules, then referees need to be covered, remember state sanctioned refs are only NHFS cert and can only go by those rules and your at a liabilityrisk

 

Youth Wrestling.

Except for when I was involved in AAU wrestling I was never involved with elementary school wrestling so my opinions might just be moot. I love the fact thhough that there is soo many kids getting involved

 

#1 Have a true state championship, it seems like the way you do it now, everyone gets to wrestle and there is a ton of championships, have a region then qualify an ex amount of wrestlers for state

#2 Have age brackets like 8/9 10/11 12/13 or grades k-1, 2/3 4/5, I prefer grades because it is the natural progression of scholastic progress. and if a kid is age eligible to wrestle weather he is a state champ or a beginner. You probably weed out the MS wrestlers because they would probably miss the regional tourney because of their MS season.

#3 I like the way you do weight classes now but a standard weigh class set with rules and educated coaches isnt a bad thing. Maybe even a Drs permission slip to be  eligible to wrestle in a weight class might not be a bad idea

 

opinions are like noses, everyone has one and breathes through it, I hope you enjoyed mine and see the positives.

I like the idea of having tournaments in each region that are open to everyone.  We have less than 50 kids in the southern part of the state that are willing to wrestle in a regional.   We wrestle in TN just about every saturday because of the distance and the fact that the best toutnaments here are on sundays in KY.  Its hard to get the parents to travel on sunday.  In TN each of the regions host a tournament that is open to everyone and the turnout is great.  The competition is great.  Such tournaments could be used as qualifiers for the state. Kids in the south have to pay an entry fee and may not wrestle a match in a regional.  Its tough here to get numbers because of travel {this cant be helped}, Football coaches are afraid to share their athletes, and your average parent doesnt realize how hard and demanding this sport is.  It is the hardest sport the kids will play.  We tell our parents that it is the most demanding sport there is and the its not for everyone.  The kids, coaches, and parents that stay in it deserve a lot of credit. 

I just mapquested the distance to Johnson county--it's over 200 miles from where I live near Louisville. My point is that geography is a serious impediment in our state. Mucho respect to the rural schools and their dedication to the sport.

Excuse me if this post is missed placed but i was reading early in the post where middle school could possibly overtake clubteams and it all be middle school. I ould have to say ask Moore how they feel about middle school. I know of at least two of their wrestlers where able to place at state and never had that oppurtunity.

this topic went no where I really wanted to go but , I really only meant for it to be a middle school only discussion but Youth got involved soo. but here are some of my opinions from what comments have been said                            

 

Meetings: As a middle school and high school coach, coaching meetings were not my #1 issue, middle school coaching had 2x the paperwork and 3x the amount of meetings. I understand the need for organization but........ hear is my idea

#1 one general meeting in the fall to go over rule changes policy changes and maybe a coaches clinic

#2 at the district seed meeting , take time to go over improvements and possible changes, elect a district spokesman that goes to the spring meeting to speak on behalf of the district

#3 A late spring KWSA meeting of all district reps that goes over policy and a ballot that is emailed to all coaches to vote on issues or let just the district reps handle a voting proxy for the district

 

Weight Cert.

Since middle school doesntuse or try to afford fat testing this is what I would do

#1 I am a firm believer in a growth allowance and not for cutting weight at the middle school level, I suggest this

#2 Must make scratch weight 3x before Jan 1 so if you are a 70Lber, you must make 70lbs scratch 3x , have a form with opposing coaches and referees sig on each weigh in

#3 if a Kid doesnt make scratch because of injury then the first weigh in after Jan is his weight class , If a kid weighs 71lbs and its his first weigh in of the season then he is a 75lber

#4 After Jan if a kid has had all three weigh ins at the desired scratch weigh, he gets his 2lb allowance ex. your 70lber get to weigh 72lbs. If he doesnt get his 3 weigh ins then he is a 75lber and gets to weigh up to 77lbs

# If a kid has his first weigh in after Jan 1 he makes 70lbs on his first weign in , he is a 70 lber and get to be 72lbs after that weigh in. This must be his first weigh in of the season. If he doesnt make 70 , he is not eligible to wrestle 70.

 

Cost of tournament hosting

# 1 $450 seems high but I am in agreement of same trophies and awards for all districts and regions especially after what happened in Anderson Co last year.

# 2 As an orgination I would look for ways to lower the cost of this fee with out sacrificing the quality

 

USA Wrestling

#1 USA Wrestling is a great orginization and has come a long way under Keith Smith

#2 I understand the question about why do I need secondary insurance, but its not about protecting your kid or school, its about making sure everyone is covered under 1 umbrella from wrestlers to coaches, to referees and schools and clubs. school insurance doesnt cover competitions vs club teams like River City or Fern Creek. If everyone has USA wrestling insurance then everyone can wrestle everyone. Im about to finish my Rank 1 in athletic adminstation and I have learned so much about liability and insurance and realized you cant have enough.

#3 All officals should have USA officals cards, maybe the KY MS can help with this cost. If you are going to use a hybrid set of rules, then referees need to be covered, remember state sanctioned refs are only NHFS cert and can only go by those rules and your at a liabilityrisk

 

Youth Wrestling.

Except for when I was involved in AAU wrestling I was never involved with elementary school wrestling so my opinions might just be moot. I love the fact thhough that there is soo many kids getting involved

 

#1 Have a true state championship, it seems like the way you do it now, everyone gets to wrestle and there is a ton of championships, have a region then qualify an ex amount of wrestlers for state

#2 Have age brackets like 8/9 10/11 12/13 or grades k-1, 2/3 4/5, I prefer grades because it is the natural progression of scholastic progress. and if a kid is age eligible to wrestle weather he is a state champ or a beginner. You probably weed out the MS wrestlers because they would probably miss the regional tourney because of their MS season.

#3 I like the way you do weight classes now but a standard weigh class set with rules and educated coaches isnt a bad thing. Maybe even a Drs permission slip to be  eligible to wrestle in a weight class might not be a bad idea

 

opinions are like noses, everyone has one and breathes through it, I hope you enjoyed mine and see the positives.

 

 

Bigedcoach who and how do you propose to track all that paperwork for weight certifications?

Bigedcoach who and how do you propose to track all that paperwork for weight certifications?

Its one form and you tourn it in to your district tournament host at the district seed meeting to be eligible. I would have no problem creating this form for the state if they asked. It was done like this for the KHSAA for a few years and middle school was close to this. Since Im not attached to any middle school program , Im always willing to help out in an unbias way.

Its one form and you tourn it in to your district tournament host at the district seed meeting to be eligible. I would have no problem creating this form for the state if they asked. It was done like this for the KHSAA for a few years and middle school was close to this. Since Im not attached to any middle school program , Im always willing to help out in an unbias way.

 

So your plan is to add it to the District Host list of everything else to check and verify?  That would make for an all day seeding meeting if you waited until then to turn in the forms.  It is already a difficult process to make sure all teams and wrestlers are up to date with their USA Cards, Track wrestling registrations, rosters are correct, all while trying to get your own team ready for Districts.  

So your plan is to add it to the District Host list of everything else to check and verify?  That would make for an all day seeding meeting if you waited until then to turn in the forms.  It is already a difficult process to make sure all teams and wrestlers are up to date with their USA Cards, Track wrestling registrations, rosters are correct, all while trying to get your own team ready for Districts.  

why is track wrestling used for middle school? actually I have ran seed meetings for HS regions and districts and had to do similar work and the meetings didnt last over 45  mins probably take longer for MS since there are 4 more weight classes, but if everything is online, it should make it easier and quicker looking at the stats program.

I guess when you are on the inside looking out it difficult to see the Disenfranchisement (to deprive a person or organization of a privilege).   Stan I do not want you or Range to think I am attacking you or the hard work both of you have contribute to Kentucky Wrestling in general not just the youth program.   However, the youth association has failed to promote wrestling in rural areas.  Check your state tournament number and I believe you can see that.  Here is the currently scenario / cost a wrestler and his parents have to go through to wrestle the elementary state coming from Johnson County. (I believe this applies to most of the rural areas of KY).

Cost:  AAU Card:  10$      Region Tournament entry fee:  10$   Transportation: Region (40$) Parents will have to transport their wrestler 75 miles (1 hour ½ (150 x 30 cents a mile)) to the Region held at Perry Central.  Admission: 12$ Food: 25$,   They will only be 25 to 30 wrestlers with 75% being from Johnson County.  In short we will wrestle ourselves and / or get 1   match.   Total cost of Region 97$

Total Cost of State: 255 (Transpiration 75$, Room 75$, Food 75$ Entry Fee 10$, Admission 20$)

So to make a long story short it will cost the parents 352 dollars to wrestle 2 matches.  You don’t see disenfranchisement in that? 

I guess when you are on the inside looking out it difficult to see the Disenfranchisement (to deprive a person or organization of a privilege).   Stan I do not want you or Range to think I am attacking you or the hard work both of you have contribute to Kentucky Wrestling in general not just the youth program.   However, the youth association has failed to promote wrestling in rural areas.  Check your state tournament number and I believe you can see that.  Here is the currently scenario / cost a wrestler and his parents have to go through to wrestle the elementary state coming from Johnson County. (I believe this applies to most of the rural areas of KY).

Cost:  AAU Card:  10$      Region Tournament entry fee:  10$   Transportation: Region (40$) Parents will have to transport their wrestler 75 miles (1 hour ½ (150 x 30 cents a mile)) to the Region held at Perry Central.  Admission: 12$ Food: 25$,   They will only be 25 to 30 wrestlers with 75% being from Johnson County.  In short we will wrestle ourselves and / or get 1   match.   Total cost of Region 97$

Total Cost of State: 255 (Transpiration 75$, Room 75$, Food 75$ Entry Fee 10$, Admission 20$)

So to make a long story short it will cost the parents 352 dollars to wrestle 2 matches.  You don’t see disenfranchisement in that? 

So you want the association to cover those cost?  How can the association from a distance actively promote wrestling in those areas.  Doesn't that responsibility really come down to the local coaches and parents in that area to get things going.  Where are the HS in those areas?  Are they doing anything to help promote and get the numbers up?  

I guess when you are on the inside looking out it difficult to see the Disenfranchisement (to deprive a person or organization of a privilege).   Stan I do not want you or Range to think I am attacking you or the hard work both of you have contribute to Kentucky Wrestling in general not just the youth program.   However, the youth association has failed to promote wrestling in rural areas.  Check your state tournament number and I believe you can see that.  Here is the currently scenario / cost a wrestler and his parents have to go through to wrestle the elementary state coming from Johnson County. (I believe this applies to most of the rural areas of KY).

Cost:  AAU Card:  10$      Region Tournament entry fee:  10$   Transportation: Region (40$) Parents will have to transport their wrestler 75 miles (1 hour ½ (150 x 30 cents a mile)) to the Region held at Perry Central.  Admission: 12$ Food: 25$,   They will only be 25 to 30 wrestlers with 75% being from Johnson County.  In short we will wrestle ourselves and / or get 1   match.   Total cost of Region 97$

Total Cost of State: 255 (Transpiration 75$, Room 75$, Food 75$ Entry Fee 10$, Admission 20$)

So to make a long story short it will cost the parents 352 dollars to wrestle 2 matches.  You don’t see disenfranchisement in that? 

JCB- I dont know if there is a perfect answer to the problems of youth wrestling in the rual areas. I feel sorry for teams from your area of the state, i think the only solution is growth, Sports are exspensive and I know there are probably little opportunity for fundraisers.

In the beginning that was one of the reasons we discussed having the elementary state move from region to region.  A rural team hosting the state could make enough money to run their youth form for years.   In addition, having the 6 regional tournaments on different weekends and using them for seeding the elementary state would increase the number of youth in all regional tournaments and increase gate for all.  Also allow the regional tournaments becoming somewhat of a youth season in the process. 

In the beginning that was one of the reasons we discussed having the elementary state move from region to region.  A rural team hosting the state could make enough money to run their youth form for years.   In addition, having the 6 regional tournaments on different weekends and using them for seeding the elementary state would increase the number of youth in all regional tournaments and increase gate for all.  Also allow the regional tournaments becoming somewhat of a youth season in the process. 

 

But yet, there are only so many places that can hold 1000 kids to wrestle.  State has been open every year to teams that wanted to host it, last year an entire region decided to host it together and spread the money out between the teams and it seemed to work out.  This year during the meeting, no one wanted to host the tournament, everyone just looked around the room and thankfully the NKY stepped up to host the tournament.  There are opportunities for the regions and teams in the "rural areas" to run the state tournament and make money for their programs, and use that as a tool to grow the sport.  Many choose not to.  

I guess when you are on the inside looking out it difficult to see the Disenfranchisement (to deprive a person or organization of a privilege). Stan I do not want you or Range to think I am attacking you or the hard work both of you have contribute to Kentucky Wrestling in general not just the youth program. However, the youth association has failed to promote wrestling in rural areas. Check your state tournament number and I believe you can see that. Here is the currently scenario / cost a wrestler and his parents have to go through to wrestle the elementary state coming from Johnson County. (I believe this applies to most of the rural areas of KY).

Cost: AAU Card: 10$ Region Tournament entry fee: 10$ Transportation: Region (40$) Parents will have to transport their wrestler 75 miles (1 hour ½ (150 x 30 cents a mile)) to the Region held at Perry Central. Admission: 12$ Food: 25$, They will only be 25 to 30 wrestlers with 75% being from Johnson County. In short we will wrestle ourselves and / or get 1 match. Total cost of Region 97$

Total Cost of State: 255 (Transpiration 75$, Room 75$, Food 75$ Entry Fee 10$, Admission 20$)

So to make a long story short it will cost the parents 352 dollars to wrestle 2 matches. You don’t see disenfranchisement in that?

The only people who should be blamed for depriving kids from those areas from wrestling are the adults in those areas who haven't figured out a way to or don't care to get youth wrestling off the ground. Everyone understands and has sympathy for the disadvantages with rural areas (population, money, travel). But how can you blame that on anyone else and what are your solutions to this "disenfranchisement"? To answer your question, no one is depriving anyone in this state to wrestle youth.

In the beginning that was one of the reasons we discussed having the elementary state move from region to region. A rural team hosting the state could make enough money to run their youth form for years. In addition, having the 6 regional tournaments on different weekends and using them for seeding the elementary state would increase the number of youth in all regional tournaments and increase gate for all. Also allow the regional tournaments becoming somewhat of a youth season in the process.

The problem with your logic about taking the profits from the state tournament is most of the rural teams don't jump at the opportunity to host and/or don't have the man power to pull it off. If raising money is the issue, have a car wash, host a tournament, have a golf outing....you'll make more money and it would be easier. I assure you that hosting the state tournament is not easy and doesn't yield as much profit as you think.

I just mapquested the distance to Johnson county--it's over 200 miles from where I live near Louisville. My point is that geography is a serious impediment in our state. Mucho respect to the rural schools and their dedication to the sport.

My son wrestles for Johnson County and if we want to wrestle we have to always travel. You just get used to it. He wrestles with the middle school but he still also wrestles the youth circuit, he's 9. We travel every weekend (when the middle school isn't wrestling after the season) 3 or 4 hours away to Oh, WV, PA to find matches. Like this weekend we have to travel past Columbus to get matches. The travel cost is outrageous but if you want your child to get better and he has the want to it has to be done.

Regarding the overall cost of participation, if you're not willing to pass the full cost on to parents or parents are unable to bear the cost and refuse to participate at the current expense level, then IMO you have hit a point that requires creative and season long fundraising. You have to go after that cost yourself, rather than hoping the events can come closer to you. It is the price we pay (no pun intended) when we choose to participate in a "minor" sport or a sport that is not popular in our local area, i.e. one that isn't football or basketball, and in some areas baseball. Fewer teams and fewer kids involved overall always means fewer / no local leagues, more travel cost, and more effort for parents. Swimming, tennis, equestrian, archery, fishing, and plenty of other sports have the same complaints, I'd suspect. I don't begrudge the N. KY and Louisville areas for having more clubs & teams around them, and for not having to travel as far to find good competition as a result. Their proximity to IN and OH and their efforts to bring those models over the borders and into their areas have been a very good thing for our sport. I wish the Lexington area was the same way (it is improving, at least on a MS level), but until it is we're stuck with packing our bags.

That being said, my 1st son, who does not wrestle, plays MS basketball and baseball. Those season fees (plus tournament team entry fees, equipment costs, etc.) easily exceed the typical amounts we spend on a wrestling season. As does my daughter's year-round swim team, with pool rental fees and a paid coach and most meets 2 days long. During wrestling season we travel at least an hour almost every weekend for events, and we spent 4 years driving 2+ hours to tournaments in Cincinnati all winter long as youth, so I think I'm in at least a somewhat comparable situation. We definitely don't wrestle in the Central KY neighborhood exclusively during the season. When everything is weighed, I still consider MS wrestling a "bargain".

Our summer travel baseball team chooses to try to help alleviate the cost pressures with coupon book sales, gift sales, yard sales, mulch sales, car washes, comedy club nights, and darn near everything else you can think of to try to generate a positive team cash flow. The swim team has a license that allows them to work bingo nights, etc. No reason a wrestling team can't do the same thing and fund-raise year round. That being said, it's dedication and elbow grease any way you slice it to be sure. Just like the sport itself.

Its one form and you tourn it in to your district tournament host at the district seed meeting to be eligible. I would have no problem creating this form for the state if they asked. It was done like this for the KHSAA for a few years and middle school was close to this. Since Im not attached to any middle school program , Im always willing to help out in an unbias way.

But with high schoolers, you only have one wrestler per weight class for districts. Some middle school teams have three or four wrestlers per weight class which creates a lot more paper work. Also high school has set weight classes across the nation. Many middle school programs travel to different states with different weight classes so the paperwork becomes a lot more confusing.

But with high schoolers, you only have one wrestler per weight class for districts. Some middle school teams have three or four wrestlers per weight class which creates a lot more paper work. Also high school has set weight classes across the nation. Many middle school programs travel to different states with different weight classes so the paperwork becomes a lot more confusing.

ok 1 piece of paper per kid at most, you only need 3 weigh ins. we are not talking wrestling a national circuit. This is easier than it sounds.

In the beginning that was one of the reasons we discussed having the elementary state move from region to region.  A rural team hosting the state could make enough money to run their youth form for years.   In addition, having the 6 regional tournaments on different weekends and using them for seeding the elementary state would increase the number of youth in all regional tournaments and increase gate for all.  Also allow the regional tournaments becoming somewhat of a youth season in the process. 

I was told by your head coach the amount you made the  year you hosted and I know it's way more than any other team has ever come close to making.  Enough to fund a team for several years.

 

I don't understand how much is needed to run a youth program.  In our club the kids paid their own entry fees for every tournament except our own.  We didn't charge gate fees but of course had a concession stand.  Each kid was also required to pay a club fee of about $50.00 that covered coach's insurance(before USA Wrestling became involved), helped buy singlets and also covered expenses for kids who couldn't pay.  We did not receive a dime from the school system, we raised all of our money by hosting tournaments and picking up trash on the roadways.  It is very hard  and takes a lot of time and patience to get parents on board but it is done in every program around the state if they want to have Youth teams.

The problem with your logic about taking the profits from the state tournament is most of the rural teams don't jump at the opportunity to host and/or don't have the man power to pull it off. If raising money is the issue, have a car wash, host a tournament, have a golf outing....you'll make more money and it would be easier. I assure you that hosting the state tournament is not easy and doesn't yield as much profit as you think.

 

Thank You.  Finally, you see by NOT moving the state tournament from region to region has disenfranchised most all of the Rural Youth Teams.  In no way is it practical for any rural teams to be able to provide 30 to 40 adult volunteers to travel over 100 miles and stay the night to run the youth state.    The argument that is always provided by those in “power” and was given by plantmanky1 (But yet, there are only so many places that can hold 1000 kids to wrestle.)  is no one  in rural area have the ability or resources.   Frankly that is a crock of B.S.  If you look back at the history of the Elementary State Tournament you will see Larue (350 kids), McCrery (350 kids) Connor (750 Kids), Johnson County, (750) are example of teams who successful held the state tournament.   Honestly my personal experiences of the elementary state tournament were more enjoyable at the different sight.

Bigedcoach - in one of your posts you referred to the refs should make sure they have a usaw ref certification as well as their nfhs certifications to host at one of our hybrid tournaments. I researched this quite a bit as well and as you pointed out this liability stuff is extremely involved. My understanding years ago was that as long as the event was ran according to nfhs guidelines, then the refs were covered through their insurance through high school certification. This is why we had to abide by the five match rule at state. Do you think this is accurate? Just want to get your opinion. I thought we were covered and actually the schools are covered through usaw as well as club teams. It would be great to get you to verify the possible scenarios we have with club teams and school teams meeting up at the various ms competitions we have, and making sure we are covering our basis. Id hate to see ranger or any of our dedicated coaches be homeless because we were misinformed. Kdsmith also knows a lot on this subject.

The officials are told if they want to do middle school matches they need to get their USAW cards also so everyone is still covered. Also in the past if the official didn't have theirs the tournament host will register them that day

Bigedcoach - in one of your posts you referred to the refs should make sure they have a usaw ref certification as well as their nfhs certifications to host at one of our hybrid tournaments. I researched this quite a bit as well and as you pointed out this liability stuff is extremely involved. My understanding years ago was that as long as the event was ran according to nfhs guidelines, then the refs were covered through their insurance through high school certification. This is why we had to abide by the five match rule at state. Do you think this is accurate? Just want to get your opinion. I thought we were covered and actually the schools are covered through usaw as well as club teams. It would be great to get you to verify the possible scenarios we have with club teams and school teams meeting up at the various ms competitions we have, and making sure we are covering our basis. Id hate to see ranger or any of our dedicated coaches be homeless because we were misinformed. Kdsmith also knows a lot on this subject.

Your covered if you have referees have the USA wrestling card. Its easy and Im sure Keith Smith stays on top of it. Schools and clubs are covered by USA wrestling and actual school sponsored teams (Teams that have only kids from one school and actually hire and pay a coach) are lucky because they most likely have both USA and local school insurance. Im sure Ranger's house is safe. I am curious about one thing, if I get back to coaching and take a team to Southern Indiana like we did in the old days, they are all scholastic teams and dont use USA wrestling.

Thank You.  Finally, you see by NOT moving the state tournament from region to region has disenfranchised most all of the Rural Youth Teams.  In no way is it practical for any rural teams to be able to provide 30 to 40 adult volunteers to travel over 100 miles and stay the night to run the youth state.    The argument that is always provided by those in “power” and was given by plantmanky1 (But yet, there are only so many places that can hold 1000 kids to wrestle.)  is no one  in rural area have the ability or resources.   Frankly that is a crock of B.S.  If you look back at the history of the Elementary State Tournament you will see Larue (350 kids), McCrery (350 kids) Connor (750 Kids), Johnson County, (750) are example of teams who successful held the state tournament.   Honestly my personal experiences of the elementary state tournament were more enjoyable at the different sight.

 

Ok JCB then tell me, why didnt any of the rural teams speak up when the discussion of moving the event to Frankfort was brought up?  Or how about the move to the Horse Park?  They could have spoke up and asked for it to be in their area, did they?      

Your covered if you have referees have the USA wrestling card. Its easy and Im sure Keith Smith stays on top of it. Schools and clubs are covered by USA wrestling and actual school sponsored teams (Teams that have only kids from one school and actually hire and pay a coach) are lucky because they most likely have both USA and local school insurance. Im sure Ranger's house is safe. I am curious about one thing, if I get back to coaching and take a team to Southern Indiana like we did in the old days, they are all scholastic teams and dont use USA wrestling.

 

BTW just to inform everyone, Middle school sponsored teams, are not covered via insurance as many think they are.  The August HCR 155 Task force meeting was very informative on the matter.  Just because your a school team, that practices in a school, has a coach paid by the BOE, doesn't mean the BOE has insurance for the program that covers anyone.  Some do, many do not, in fact most do not.  Just ask KDE, it was their insurance rep that let that cat out of the bag in the meeting. 

BTW just to inform everyone, Middle school sponsored teams, are not covered via insurance as many think they are.  The August HCR 155 Task force meeting was very informative on the matter.  Just because your a school team, that practices in a school, has a coach paid by the BOE, doesn't mean the BOE has insurance for the program that covers anyone.  Some do, many do not, in fact most do not.  Just ask KDE, it was their insurance rep that let that cat out of the bag in the meeting. 

I was just going on past JCPS data which has a different insurance case, but this is why USA wrestling is so important, you can never have enough insurance

I was just going on past JCPS data which has a different insurance case, but this is why USA wrestling is so important, you can never have enough insurance

 

Agreed, one of the task force members was a principal from a middle school.  After that meeting they checked their insurance and found out that indeed their middle school athletes in all sports where not covered in the plan that they had.  It cost that school district over $75,000 to get an updated policy that did cover their middle/youth school athletes. 

I not sure why so many people are always complaining about the $10 League card that has the coverage below.

 

For the record, This card should be purchased on day 1 of your season. The day you step on the mat for the season. This is not for just post season activity. As the infomation explains; coverage does not start until recieved by USA Wrestling or your state director. If a kid gets hurt in practice without the $10 league card and the club having a Charter. Who do you think pays for his injury? School, No they do not in most cases. Parents will pay and try to recoup out of pocket expences through the school. When that don't happen, then they will sue who? the coaches, school, the BOE, etc.

 

The $10 USA Wrestling league card covers all this along with having a chartered club to cover both member and club/school Volunteers from liability.

 

INSURANCE COVERAGE

At USA Wrestling, our top priorities are safety and security, that’s why we make sure you’re protected by

insurance coverage considered to be among the most extensive in the sports industry! Please take a few

minutes to familiarize yourself with the following highlights of our policies and coverage. As always, if you

have any questions, please don’t hesitate to contact USA Wrestling State Services at (719) 598-8181 or

e-mail [email protected].

 

TYPES OF COVERAGE

• Secondary Sports Accident Insurance: for injuries sustained while wrestling, coaching, or officiating

• General Liability Insurance: to protect all members and volunteers from liability claims (first dollar

legal defense)

Please note that there is no Secondary Sports Accident or Liability coverage for wrestling activities

held at a home or residential dwelling

 

SECONDARY SPORTS ACCIDENT INSURANCE:

•Coverage is secondary to primary medical insurance

• $1,000,000 aggregate benefit, with the following limits:

•Accidental Dental – $100,000

•Physical Therapy – $100,000

•Orthopedic Appliance – $100,000

• Claims must be filed with primary medical carrier first (if applicable)

•You must follow “in-network” requirements of your primary insurer

•There is a $500 deductible per injury

• Coinsurance rate is 80% – 20% on the first $10,000 after the $500 deductible

•Max out of pocket per injury is $2,500 ($500 deductible + $2,000 coinsurance)

 

WHO IS COVERED?

• Wrestlers, Coaches, and Officials holding USA Wrestling Membership

 

WHEN DOES COVERAGE START?

•When you have completed and paid for your membership online; or

•When the state association or its director receives both membership information and fees

 

WHEN ARE MEMBERS COVERED FOR SECONDARY MEDICAL?

•At USA Wrestling chartered club practices

––Practices must be organized and supervised by a member coach

––All participating club members must be individual USA Wrestling members

•When participating in sanctioned USA Wrestling events and activities

•When traveling directly to or from USA Wrestling sanctioned events or chartered club practices

•While participating in non-sanctioned events

––Events must be formally scheduled, supervised, and conducted by a recognized sports

organization, association, civic group, or school and its rules must be in force

 

Secondary Sports Accident coverage while at the above non-sanctioned events extends to:

––Member athletes – while competing

––Member coaches – while coaching

––Member officials – while officiating

 

USA WRESTLING GENERAL LIABILITY COVERAGE

 

WHAT DOES GENERAL LIABILITY PROVIDE COVERAGE FOR?

 

•Bodily and personal injury (3rd party)

•Property damage (3rd party)

•Participant legal liability

WHAT ARE THE COMMERCIAL GENERAL LIABILITY POLICY LIMITS?

––$5,000,000 per occurrence

––$100,000 limit on damage to premises rented to you

 

WHO IS COVERED?

•Wrestlers holding USA Wrestling Athlete Membership

•Coaches holding USA Wrestling Coaches Membership

• Officials holding USA Wrestling Officials Membership

•USA Wrestling Chartered Clubs

•Event directors and volunteers at sanctioned events

• Additional insured entities that are specifically named

•State Associations

 

WHEN DOES GENERAL LIABILITY COVERAGE APPLY?

 

For individual members:

•When membership information is submitted and payment is received by USA Wrestling or your state association

 

For clubs and club volunteers

•When the club submits application and payment to USA Wrestling or your state organization

•All members of the club must also be members of USA Wrestling for coverage to apply

 

For event directors and event volunteers:

•When the event sanction application is submitted with payment and approved by the state

association. Coverage applies for the duration of the event, to include set-up and tear-down. USA

Wrestling membership must be a requirement for event participation for coverage to apply.

 

PARTICIPANT LIABILITY

•Provides coverage for claims against participants for acts that the insured is found legally liable

•This does not cover athletes for claims brought against them by another athlete

 

PROPERTY DAMAGE

•Provides liability coverage for loss or damage to the property of others

•Coverage is subject to a $500 deductible

•Personal effects of individuals, including jewelry and cash are excluded

•Policy does not include full replacement – depreciated value is the basis for claim payment

Auto liability and collision coverage are not included in USA Wrestling’s general liability policy.

Please make sure all drivers are licensed and appropriately insured. We encourage you to visit with

a local insurance agent to discuss coverage options, including a non-owned and hired auto policy

for your club.

 

CERTIFICATES OF INSURANCE

 

With an approved event sanction or club charter, you will receive a Certificate of Insurance. This proves

that your club has insurance and states coverage limits. Many facility owners/operators will ask for this

proof as a condition of you using the facility. The owner/operator of a facility may also ask to be listed

as a Certificate Holder on a Certificate of Insurance. This gives the owner/operator proof that you have

insurance and states that they will be notified of any changes.

 

You can also submit application to name an Additional Insured. Additional insured entities are extended

the same coverage as the event host or chartered club. Schools, school districts, and facility owners/

operators often ask to be an additional insured. You can request an additional insured during the

sanctioning process.

 

The key difference between a Certificate Holder and an Additional Insured is that the Additional Insured

is extended liability coverage. A Certificate Holder is only provided proof that the event host or chartered

club has liability insurance and the Certificate Holder will be notified of any changes in coverage.

 

CERTIFICATE OF INSURANCE & ADDITIONAL INSURED PROCESSING PROCEDURES

 

•Fill out an application for Sanction of Event or Club Charter [whichever is applicable]. This is proof

that the event host, the club, its directors, and volunteers are provided liability insurance coverage for

covered claims and related litigation within the conditions and limits of the policy procured by USA

wrestling. As part of the event sanctioning / club charting process, you will be asked to provide the

name and address of the facility’s owner/operator who should be listed as a Certificate Holder. The

owner operator of the facility in which the event is hosted will automatically be listed as a Certificate

Holder as part of the sanctioning/chartering process – there is no additional fee.

Regarding the overall cost of participation, if you're not willing to pass the full cost on to parents or parents are unable to bear the cost and refuse to participate at the current expense level, then IMO you have hit a point that requires creative and season long fundraising. You have to go after that cost yourself, rather than hoping the events can come closer to you. It is the price we pay (no pun intended) when we choose to participate in a "minor" sport or a sport that is not popular in our local area, i.e. one that isn't football or basketball, and in some areas baseball. Fewer teams and fewer kids involved overall always means fewer / no local leagues, more travel cost, and more effort for parents. Swimming, tennis, equestrian, archery, fishing, and plenty of other sports have the same complaints, I'd suspect. I don't begrudge the N. KY and Louisville areas for having more clubs & teams around them, and for not having to travel as far to find good competition as a result. Their proximity to IN and OH and their efforts to bring those models over the borders and into their areas have been a very good thing for our sport. I wish the Lexington area was the same way (it is improving, at least on a MS level), but until it is we're stuck with packing our bags.

That being said, my 1st son, who does not wrestle, plays MS basketball and baseball. Those season fees (plus tournament team entry fees, equipment costs, etc.) easily exceed the typical amounts we spend on a wrestling season. As does my daughter's year-round swim team, with pool rental fees and a paid coach and most meets 2 days long. During wrestling season we travel at least an hour almost every weekend for events, and we spent 4 years driving 2+ hours to tournaments in Cincinnati all winter long as youth, so I think I'm in at least a somewhat comparable situation. We definitely don't wrestle in the Central KY neighborhood exclusively during the season. When everything is weighed, I still consider MS wrestling a "bargain".

Our summer travel baseball team chooses to try to help alleviate the cost pressures with coupon book sales, gift sales, yard sales, mulch sales, car washes, comedy club nights, and darn near everything else you can think of to try to generate a positive team cash flow. The swim team has a license that allows them to work bingo nights, etc. No reason a wrestling team can't do the same thing and fund-raise year round. That being said, it's dedication and elbow grease any way you slice it to be sure. Just like the sport itself.

I think your post is right on. Unfortunately, if you can't afford a sport then find a way to make it happen. If not, find another sport. I think many sports are amazing, but some are not attainable for me...ie sky diving, car racing ect. That's why my family doesnt do them. Just saying.

I second that motion Keith. Some people just don't realize how good things really are.

Thank You.  Finally, you see by NOT moving the state tournament from region to region has disenfranchised most all of the Rural Youth Teams.  In no way is it practical for any rural teams to be able to provide 30 to 40 adult volunteers to travel over 100 miles and stay the night to run the youth state.    The argument that is always provided by those in “power” and was given by http://www.kentuckywrestling.com/forums/index.php?/user/19978-plantmanky1/'>plantmanky1 (But yet, there are only so many places that can hold 1000 kids to wrestle.)  is no one  in rural area have the ability or resources.   Frankly that is a crock of B.S.  If you look back at the history of the Elementary State Tournament you will see Larue (350 kids), McCrery (350 kids) Connor (750 Kids), Johnson County, (750) are example of teams who successful held the state tournament.   Honestly my personal experiences of the elementary state tournament were more enjoyable at the different sight.

Our team was the last team to successfully host the state tournament and that was done with the help of a couple other teams. The fact is, no one team has enough man power to host the state tournament and do it right by themselves anymore. Our entire region is hosting the state this year and to be honest, our program would rather not have been involved with it at all. It takes a ton of work from a lot people and when it is all said and done, their isn't enough money after you split the profits between all the teams for it to be worth the headache. The benefits of getting the youth kids in the same venue as the high school state the day after is priceless. Allowing the kids to come down the day before to see the high school finals can only help grow and develop young wrestlers and their families. It is the best advertisement to the youth kids and their families our state can offer. I think this overrides your personal experience and enjoyment of a different site, agree? If not, then it is obvious your preference is catering to you and your needs versus what's best for the state. If your team is hurting for money, I'm sure many people would give you many better ideas to raise money. It should not be the role of the association to raise money for selected "rural" teams. The last thing the association needs is to start a welfare system.

Ok JCB then tell me, why didnt any of the rural teams speak up when the discussion of moving the event to Frankfort was brought up?  Or how about the move to the Horse Park?  They could have spoke up and asked for it to be in their area, did they?      

 

Many did express concerns. If you go back and read some of the post dated 7-8-09, 2-6-10 & 1-21-11( I am sure that they are other) you will see myself and other have consistently questioned why the state tournament did not continue to be move around from region to region as it was in the beginning. I have been consistence in describing what I see at the short coming of the youth association. I only posted on this subject in an effort to make positive changes that would grow the sport, not to negatively attack any one. Currently they are probably no less than 10 teams, west, south and east of Lexington who could and would affectedly host the tournament. As I started this post with “wheels on the bus goes around and around”.

 

Raidercoach

You are simply wrong. The last 2 elementary tournaments held before it went to Frankfort had over 750 wrestlers and was done well and over by 6 PM. You truly believe another 100 to 150 kids makes it that much of a difference. I can only speak for Johnson County we have and could successful host the Elementary State Tournament.

Keith that looks great and clarifies a lot. Something we do in our region is have youth and ms dual meets along side hs varsity. Are these events covered or would the host scbool need to charter the event? I understand the usa members would be based on your post, but what about the schools liability? Just curious.

Many did express concerns. If you go back and read some of the post dated 7-8-09, 2-6-10 & 1-21-11( I am sure that they are other) you will see myself and other have consistently questioned why the state tournament did not continue to be move around from region to region as it was in the beginning. I have been consistence in describing what I see at the short coming of the youth association. I only posted on this subject in an effort to make positive changes that would grow the sport, not to negatively attack any one. Currently they are probably no less than 10 teams, west, south and east of Lexington who could and would affectedly host the tournament. As I started this post with “wheels on the bus goes around and around”.   Raidercoach You are simply wrong. The last 2 elementary tournaments held before it went to Frankfort had over 750 wrestlers and was done well and over by 6 PM. You truly believe another 100 to 150 kids makes it that much of a difference. I can only speak for Johnson County we have and could successful host the Elementary State Tournament.

First, there is NO WAY you had near 750 wrestlers the year you hosted. In fact, I doubt you even had half that many kids there that year. We had 350 kids at the Rumble this year and it is a massive undertaking to run that tournament, and we have probably the largest contingent in the state at the youth level. I don't have the numbers, but I would guess you probably had closer to 300-350 kids the year you hosted. You claim it was ran "successfully" the year you hosted, yet to this day that tournament is notoriously considered the worst ran tournament by many people I know from different schools from across the state. It started hours late and finished way past the time you claim. That is all I will say about it because I really don't want to offend anyone there who probably worked their tail off. The fact is, running a tournament of that size takes more than one team...no question about it. I shiver at the idea of our team attempting to host a 1000 kid tournament by ourselves. We wouldn't attempt it out of respect to the rest of the state.

Keith that looks great and clarifies a lot. Something we do in our region is have youth and ms dual meets along side hs varsity. Are these events covered or would the host scbool need to charter the event? I understand the usa members would be based on your post, but what about the schools liability? Just curious.

 

Good question for the school, but in my opinion they are not.. A USAW event sanction would be the way to go.

Keith that looks great and clarifies a lot. Something we do in our region is have youth and ms dual meets along side hs varsity. Are these events covered or would the host scbool need to charter the event? I understand the usa members would be based on your post, but what about the schools liability? Just curious.

 

Keith that looks great and clarifies a lot. Something we do in our region is have youth and ms dual meets along side hs varsity. Are these events covered or would the host scbool need to charter the event? I understand the usa members would be based on your post, but what about the schools liability? Just curious.

WE did that at Eastern sometimes and we were covered, Eastern had a copy of our cert and we were good, we would wrestle JVs and middle school kids

WE did that at Eastern sometimes and we were covered, Eastern had a copy of our cert and we were good, we would wrestle JVs and middle school kids

 

I was talking to Ranger about this topic tonight.  I hope any ms/youth coaches watching this board make sure they have proper insurance coverage.  Do not assume you, the kids, the school are covered.  Conner had a kid sue the school years ago.  From what i was told about the lawsuit, the kid's family tried to sue everyone including 1) the volunteer youth coach 2) the varsity head coach 3) the AD 4) the principal 5) the BOE.  The only person present when this kid got injured was the volunteer youth coach. 

 

Ranger told me it costs $40 to sanction your event.  When we ran youth/ms dual meets alongside the varsity meet at Conner, the AD told me the gate was more than the varsity boys basketball gate would be for a Friday night.  Not sure what the $ amount was, but easily more than $40.

 

All you youth/ms coaches out there work very hard and most parents appreciate that.  But don't think for 1 second if their kid gets a serious injury you will not be sued!!!  Sorry to hijack the thread but I feel we might have some bigtime risk here.

biged - in reply to your original questions, I'm not sure if the state taking over the middle school sports is picking up steam or not, but to me if the state does, it will be bad for wrestling.  Some concerns I would have is:

 

1) title ix (not sure if this is an issue at middle school or not)

2) the state would probably split and have club state & school state.  you would end up with two "lesser" tournaments in my opinion. 

3) its very hard to convince an AD or principal to give wrestling a chance.  If they did not grow up in the sport, odds are not good.

 

Have you heard more about this?  What's your opinion on this?

For Everyone's information..........The state will be taking over MS athletics anytime soon for this main reason.  KDE can not mandate that a school join an association.  Yes in High school everyone joins, but they don't have too, not by rule.  In the task force meetings one of the state representatives that was "all for" a middle school athletic association brought in the presidents from the Tennessee and Illinois middle school athletic associations.  There were many positives that both of those organizations had, but one major negative was the fact that..........................................................less than 30% of the state middle schools joined the associations in those states!!! Top that with the fact in Illinois for a middle school to have all their sports programs in the IMSAA, it cost over $4000 a year in annual fees, that's more than schools pay the KHSAA isn't it?  (I thought the current annual fee is $3500, someone correct me if I am wrong.)

 

Moral of the point, it wont be happening anytime soon, unless KDE and Frankfort find boat loads of money to fund it, which they wont.  

biged - in reply to your original questions, I'm not sure if the state taking over the middle school sports is picking up steam or not, but to me if the state does, it will be bad for wrestling.  Some concerns I would have is:

 

1) title ix (not sure if this is an issue at middle school or not)

2) the state would probably split and have club state & school state.  you would end up with two "lesser" tournaments in my opinion. 

3) its very hard to convince an AD or principal to give wrestling a chance.  If they did not grow up in the sport, odds are not good.

 

Have you heard more about this?  What's your opinion on this?

 

Agee 100%

I was at the youth state tournament when it was at Johnson County.

We didn't get out of there until very late. It was close to 11pm trust me, I was there. I remember because Coach Badida was there and there was an issue with team scores and they were trying to figure all that out. There was hardly anyone left in the gym, except for those few teams waiting on the team results to claim their trophy.

Weigh-Ins that day took forever and that was with about 400-500 kids, maybe, could have been less or more. Didn't get started wrestling till late that day as well. Its not easy to run a tournament of this size. So trying to say you can host a youth state tournament that has well over a 1000 kids. This is a job folks. I've been involved running the youth state tournament in the past with Stan Martin and it takes a lot work from many many people and other teams. Raider Youth and Campbell County are two very successful programs that have a great following from their parents/fans. It takes everyone involved to pull such an event off and to do it Successfully. Heck I host a MS tournament with about 20 teams in a very small gym, and it takes my staff from April till December to make it run smoothly. I mean anyone can throw a tournament together. But to run a very successful tournament, so that teams want to come back to it should be your goal.

Running tournaments aren't as easy as some paint the picture to be. My hats go off to ALL the people who do it, rather its a success or not, because I know its a lot of work.

I don't recall seeing anyone post that it was easy. It was just stated that a rural (as you guys call us) county could and have hosted it in the past. But anyone has to give kudos to anyone that host the state tourney. But I have to agree a rural county should have the same opportunity has urban counties at hosting the state tourney if they would like the opportunity.

Last time I checked the Ryle and Campbell county programs are not urban programs.

Blue/jcb - please have someone from your team at the spring meeting as I am 99% sure you can host youth state in 2014. As someone stated earlier, n ky is hosting this year because no one else wanted it.

Ok

Blue/jcb - please have someone from your team at the spring meeting as I am 99% sure you can host youth state in 2014. As someone stated earlier, n ky is hosting this year because no one else wanted it.

 

I started this post with tell all that many teams East, West, and South of Lexington feel powerless and are disfranchised with the association due to some of the decisions made in the past. The greatest decision made be the association was to move the state tournament to Frankfort. This make it unfeasible for any team other than one from Lexington- Louisville – Cincinnati triangle to be the host. Look back at the first 5 years the tournament was held in all areas of the state with the exception of the far west. ( La Rue, Louisville, Campbell County, Johnson County and McCreary) Follow the money since the tournament was move to Frankfort. The money only goes in one direction. (north) Please do not take me wrong teams who have hosted the state tournament earned every penny they made no matter if it was at Frankfort or not.

 

 

To reply to you post. We would love to host the youth state tournament again. Lets go ahead and set a date. Looking at the 2014 calendar the week after the high school state would be the 22^nd. Tentatively can we go ahead and schedule the youth state tournament at Johnson Central High School for the 22^nd

Why don't you host it in Lexington? Besides do you have the hotels to support a 1 day tournament of 1000 plus kids? That's a long drive for 90% of the participants. I think you'll be hard pressed to get it moved from wherever HS state is. It's a great setup.

Why don't you host it in Lexington? Besides do you have the hotels to support a 1 day tournament of 1000 plus kids? That's a long drive for 90% of the participants. I think you'll be hard pressed to get it moved from wherever HS state is. It's a great setup.

 

I was just having some fun. 

How does Frankfort or Lexington make it easy on a cincinnati area team and unfeasible for an eastern ky team? Is an 1:30-2 hrs that much closer than 2-2:30?

I started this post with tell all that many teams East, West, and South of Lexington feel powerless and are disfranchised with the association due to some of the decisions made in the past. The greatest decision made be the association was to move the state tournament to Frankfort. This make it unfeasible for any team other than one from Lexington- Louisville – Cincinnati triangle to be the host. Look back at the first 5 years the tournament was held in all areas of the state with the exception of the far west. ( La Rue, Louisville, Campbell County, Johnson County and McCreary) Follow the money since the tournament was move to Frankfort. The money only goes in one direction. (north) Please do not take me wrong teams who have hosted the state tournament earned every penny they made no matter if it was at Frankfort or not.

To reply to you post. We would love to host the youth state tournament again. Lets go ahead and set a date. Looking at the 2014 calendar the week after the high school state would be the 22^nd. Tentatively can we go ahead and schedule the youth state tournament at Johnson Central High School for the 22^nd

Moving the tournament to the location of the high school state was the best decision the youth association ever made. Unless you and your team acknowledge the mistakes at the last state tournament you ran and your plan to prevent it if you hosted again, I doubt anyone would go along with allowing JC to host by themselves. You claim you ran the state tournament of 750 kids (it was more like 300) "successfully" but many disagree with your definition of successful.

You've made it clear why you want to host; money and convenience for you. You complained about the youth association making decisions to only help the host team, but yet all you have complained about is money and proximity of the state tournament to where you live. Where are the state tournaments for football and basketball hosted? Are there any state tournaments hosted in Eastern Kentucky? I'm pretty sure there aren't any in Northern Kentucky. Just get over it already.

Just to have a little fun when Ryle hosted the youth in Franfort we had one heck of a hospitality room

I started this post with tell all that many teams East, West, and South of Lexington feel powerless and are disfranchised with the association due to some of the decisions made in the past. The greatest decision made be the association was to move the state tournament to Frankfort. This make it unfeasible for any team other than one from Lexington- Louisville – Cincinnati triangle to be the host. Look back at the first 5 years the tournament was held in all areas of the state with the exception of the far west. ( La Rue, Louisville, Campbell County, Johnson County and McCreary) Follow the money since the tournament was move to Frankfort. The money only goes in one direction. (north) Please do not take me wrong teams who have hosted the state tournament earned every penny they made no matter if it was at Frankfort or not.

 

 

To reply to you post. We would love to host the youth state tournament again. Lets go ahead and set a date. Looking at the 2014 calendar the week after the high school state would be the 22^nd. Tentatively can we go ahead and schedule the youth state tournament at Johnson Central High School for the 22^nd

The geographical center of Kentucky is somewhere around Lebanon in Marion County....an hour further west for Johnson County folks.

 

The population center of Kentucky is in Willisburg....once again an hour further west for Johnson County folks.

 

Lexington is the closest "big" city to both of those places and where the HS tournament is currently held.

 

Is it possible the decision made by the association to move the location had more to do w/ these factors (that affect ALL) and not this mysterious "bermuda triangle" conspiracy against Johnson County and the rural areas?

Our kids wrestle in middle/high school gyms all most every weekend.  When they walk into a venue such as altech or the convention center they feel as if they are on the same level as the high school athletes.  Isnt this what we want?  We would love to host the state tournament, but we also realize that we do not have the man power to do so.  If we did, we would host it where the high school wrestles theirs.  Hosting a state tournament in "rural area school"  is not practical.  Our school system has three gyms on campus, but who wants to go from gym to gym to gym.  As far as the funding of our program we collect money from the parents for AAU and USA cards.  We have also had different fundraisers throughout the season.  Little Ceasers has a great pizza kit fundraiser.  This season isnt finished yet and we are now working on fundraisers for next season.

Heck keep it were it's at or move it back to Frankfort. The main thing that needs to be fixed is the way our tournament is ran. Host seeding tournaments and regionals. Have 16 or 32 man brackets. Let middle school kids that place at the midfle school tournament still enter. Quit watering down the tournament, let's have true youth state champions. In WV, OH, PA and so on it is a great accomplishment to win the state championship. Only thing now that our kids get out of it now is having their names called in the face off.

If your afraid it will make less experienced kids show up, have a novice state tournament aswell. Best of both worlds.

I think that the KY tournament of champions is basically serving that purpose. Top 4 youth and top 6 MS placers, USAW weight classes. In other words, a "true state champion" could be determined for the kids who are looking for that.

I think that the KY tournament of champions is basically serving that purpose. Top 4 youth and top 6 MS placers, USAW weight classes. In other words, a "true state champion" could be determined for the kids who are looking for that.

 I was told the tournament of champions will be for elementary age eligable kids only. Under 13 as of Jan 1st. Where are the details concerning this? Who is putting this together? Whats the point of having 13/14 yr old kids at the TOC? They already had their shot its called the MS state tournament.

I don't have all the info. I've just seen what was sent out on the MS and elementary state flyers that went to the coaches. It says top 6 MS and top 4 youth. Hopefully the organizers step up soon with some info. My son is planning to place first at youth state and is really looking forward to the toc. I started a thread about how we as a state should make it a big deal, but didn't get much response. It doesn't seem like many even know about it.

Having a "real" state tournament after our state tournament doesn't make any sense to me. We're better off putting our efforts behind making our state tournament more competitive. Moving to 16 man brackets will certainly make it more competitive without disrupting all the positive aspects of the current tournament.

I think that the KY tournament of champions is basically serving that purpose. Top 4 youth and top 6 MS placers, USAW weight classes. In other words, a "true state champion" could be determined for the kids who are looking for that.

The only problem with this is that The Kentucky TOC will be held on the same day as the TOC in Columbus (i think not 100% positive) and many of us will attend that in place of Kentuckys. We need to think about switching dates so we can attend both if it and the original TOC are on the same date.

The only problem with this is that The Kentucky TOC will be held on the same day as the TOC in Columbus (i think not 100% positive) and many of us will attend that in place of Kentuckys. We need to think about switching dates so we can attend both if it and the original TOC are on the same date.

KY TOC is 3/30. Ohio TOC is 4/20, so that shouldn't be a problem. At least those are the dates listed for each event. We plan to attend both.

KY TOC is 3/30. Ohio TOC is 4/20, so that shouldn't be a problem. At least those are the dates listed for each event. We plan to attend both.

That's great should work out very good in that case.

KY TOC is 3/30. Ohio TOC is 4/20, so that shouldn't be a problem. At least those are the dates listed for each event. We plan to attend both.

That's great should work out very good in that case.

　

3.30.13 - Kentucky Tournament of Champions / Youth / MS / Invitation Only - St. X HS

Who is organizing? River city or KYUSA wrestling?

What will the age group and weight classes be. Is it 7U 9U and so on and 60 65 70 so on. Thanks

Who is organizing? River city or KYUSA wrestling?

Lets add, what are the age requirements?

Efren is tournament director, USAW weight Classes and age groups.

Efren is tournament director, USAW weight Classes and age groups.

http://www.themat.com/forms/Weights.pdf

Having a "real" state tournament after our state tournament doesn't make any sense to me. We're better off putting our efforts behind making our state tournament more competitive. Moving to 16 man brackets will certainly make it more competitive without disrupting all the positive aspects of the current tournament.

1. I agree 100% with you that it makes no sense to have multiple state tournaments. This Sunday is the Kentucky Youth State Championships. Kentucky ToC is a regional event involving out of state kids.

2. I disagree with 16 man brackets. Lets leave it the way it is. Doing a 16 man bracket in a condensed timeframe is asking for trouble. If we go to that, let's not make it 10-12 hour days like the middle schools are doing at state duals, state tournament, Woodford County Invite etc. In other words lets do the best we can to abide by the NFHS 5 match rule. I think it also stifles growth of the sport because moms and little sisters do not want to sit in a gym for 12 hours every Saturday from late October through February. For that matter, I don't want to either and wrestling is a passion of mine.

I think it also stifles growth of the sport because moms and little sisters do not want to sit in a gym for 12 hours every Saturday from late October through February. For that matter, I don't want to either and wrestling is a passion of mine.

1. I agree 100% with you that it makes no sense to have multiple state tournaments. This Sunday is the Kentucky Youth State Championships. Kentucky ToC is a regional event involving out of state kids.

2. I disagree with 16 man brackets. Lets leave it the way it is. Doing a 16 man bracket in a condensed timeframe is asking for trouble. If we go to that, let's not make it 10-12 hour days like the middle schools are doing at state duals, state tournament, Woodford County Invite etc. In other words lets do the best we can to abide by the NFHS 5 match rule. I think it also stifles growth of the sport because moms and little sisters do not want to sit in a gym for 12 hours every Saturday from late October through February. For that matter, I don't want to either and wrestling is a passion of mine.

I cant speak for woodford co, but Please explain to me how the 5 match rule impacted the length of ms state? Virtually no impact except letting a couple kids wrestle for their medal rather than forfeit. As for state duals it impacted 2 teams. Both coaches had the option to ff and go home but all coaches were fine with wrestling the true second match. And as I recall we were cleaned up and out of the gym before any 10-12 hr timeframe.

I think it also stifles growth of the sport because moms and little sisters do not want to sit in a gym for 12 hours every Saturday from late October through February. For that matter, I don't want to either and wrestling is a passion of mine.

If you don't want to sit in a gym all day every Saturday from Oct. through Feb., I suggest you find a new sport. 5 match rule or no 5 match rule this is want the sport involves. We tell our new parents to plan on leaving in the morning before dark and arriving home after dark. If it happens to be a short day then that's a bonus.

I cant speak for woodford co, but Please explain to me how the 5 match rule impacted the length of ms state? Virtually no impact except letting a couple kids wrestle for their medal rather than forfeit. As for state duals it impacted 2 teams. Both coaches had the option to ff and go home but all coaches were fine with wrestling the true second match. And as I recall we were cleaned up and out of the gym before any 10-12 hr timeframe.

It wasn't the 5 match rule as much as the 16 man bracket. The 5 match rule simply dictates you can't do 16 man brackets. I'll agree that state probably needs to stay at 16, but it should be the exception and not the rule. I'm astonished at things like the Dragon happen at the high school level.

Ranger--MS State duals were awesome. I loved it. However, it doesn't revolve around you. You may have been done in less than 10 hours. The Louisville folks (River City, Shamrock, and North Oldham) traveled well over 200 miles in addition to the 9-10 hours in the gym. You simply won't get the Union County or Johnson Central folks to events like that. I think the events should be two days, but understand the reluctance to go that route. I don't have the answers and am just participating in the questions.

I'd love to see mat side weigh-ins immediately before wrestling. I'd love to see more duals. I'd like to see a 40 match limit during the season. All I can do is try to influence those I can and stick to what I know works for me and our team.

If they love the sport they will stick with it. I mean this is how we were introduced to the sport and we stuck with it. I drove over 500 miles round trip just this past weekend for my son to wrestle 2 tournaments. We were at the gym for 8 1/2 hours the first day for 5 matches. The second day we were there for over 6 hours for 5 matches. So what's the difference in them going through the same experiences as the rest of us. My 9 year old son has done it the last 3 years and loves every second of it. I get a little tired but seeing his face after he wins these tournaments his priceless and I wouldn't change a thing. Infact I wouldnt take anything for the time he and I have spent together for the long hours in these ratty gyms. So introduce them to it. If they like what comes with it great, if not let em move on if they want to. Wrestling will go on and grow with the kids and parents that love it and nit just tolerate it.

If they love the sport they will stick with it. I mean this is how we were introduced to the sport and we stuck with it. I drove over 500 miles round trip just this past weekend for my son to wrestle 2 tournaments. We were at the gym for 8 1/2 hours the first day for 5 matches. The second day we were there for over 6 hours for 5 matches. So what's the difference in them going through the same experiences as the rest of us. My 9 year old son has done it the last 3 years and loves every second of it. I get a little tired but seeing his face after he wins these tournaments his priceless and I wouldn't change a thing. Infact I wouldnt take anything for the time he and I have spent together for the long hours in these ratty gyms. So introduce them to it. If they like what comes with it great, if not let em move on if they want to. Wrestling will go on and grow with the kids and parents that love it and nit just tolerate it.

Good, valid points. I can't disagree too much. I love ice cream, but it gets old when I eat it at every meal (and I've tried) though. I just attended the PSU/OSU match and spoke with some college teammates who were there. We discussed the "Cornell" style of making wrestling fun again. Nobody would accuse Kyle Dake or Steve Bosak of not being tough. Regular season youth tournaments do not need to be ball busters.

It wasn't the 5 match rule as much as the 16 man bracket. The 5 match rule simply dictates you can't do 16 man brackets. I'll agree that state probably needs to stay at 16, but it should be the exception and not the rule. I'm astonished at things like the Dragon happen at the high school level.

Ranger--MS State duals were awesome. I loved it. However, it doesn't revolve around you. You may have been done in less than 10 hours. The Louisville folks (River City, Shamrock, and North Oldham) traveled well over 200 miles in addition to the 9-10 hours in the gym. You simply won't get the Union County or Johnson Central folks to events like that. I think the events should be two days, but understand the reluctance to go that route. I don't have the answers and am just participating in the questions.

I'd love to see mat side weigh-ins immediately before wrestling. I'd love to see more duals. I'd like to see a 40 match limit during the season. All I can do is try to influence those I can and stick to what I know works for me and our team.

The only regular season events you have mentioned are woodford and the dragon. I can't speak to those but things happen especially when you have coaching turnover. I would assume the staffs at those schools will address the issues for next year. If not dont o back. Ive been to events in many states and run by a number of organizations and none are perfect. Issues come up for everyone eventually.

State championship events will never be in everyone's back yard and finish in 3 hrs. If you can't handle driving a few hrs and spending a long day in the gym then you won't be part of a state championship event. Simple facts. As a matter of fact ms state duals were supposed to be in region 2 this yr. Sounds like a broken record but no one wanted to host so cc stepped up. Same thing happened with your district until coach q pulled some strings. When people aren't willing to do the work you can't complain who you have to travel.

I've never completely grasped why folks point to the bracket sizes and the 5 match rule when discussing overall tournament length, but no one discusses the typical delays in overall start time, or the length of the intermissions. When weigh-ins are 7:30-9 and you're not wrestling until 10:30, and you have 2 45-60 minute breaks during the day to try to drive extra concession sales, then you can absolutely book a 9pm or later finish time. I'm not pointing to any tournament in particular, but a fair # of the typical weekend tournaments we've attended in KY over the past 2 years have issues of this nature, particularly with start times.

I do understand that occasionally a short break is warranted to try to catch up on bracketing paperwork, team scores, feed/rest officials, or to give consolation wrestlers their required minimum. Those 15-20 minute breaks are not the ones that I refer to here. And I understand that overall manpower plays a role too in how quickly and effectively a tournament can be driven to conclusion.

Even face offs are often significantly time consuming. I love them for regionals and state tournament (esp. with the projector!), but I'm not sure every single tournament every single weekend needs to have one, if time is truly an issue.

My point is that there are ways to drive "the usual weekend tournament" to an earlier finish time that do NOT involve limiting how often you can wrestle, or how many kids can be allowed to wrestle, which is what we're all there for in the first place.

The other elephant in the room is there aren't very many MS tournaments going on in KY on any given weekend, maybe one or two at best, so everybody wants in...until there are more venues able to host/host more often, and you can choose from 3-4 events consistently, it's hard to grow the sport and tell teams "sorry, we're full" at the same time.

I've never completely grasped why folks point to the bracket sizes and the 5 match rule when discussing overall tournament length, but no one discusses the typical delays in overall start time, or the length of the intermissions. When weigh-ins are 7:30-9 and you're not wrestling until 10:30, and you have 2 45-60 minute breaks during the day to try to drive extra concession sales, then you can absolutely book a 9pm or later finish time. I'm not pointing to any tournament in particular, but a fair # of the typical weekend tournaments we've attended in KY over the past 2 years have issues of this nature, particularly with start times.

I do understand that occasionally a short break is warranted to try to catch up on bracketing paperwork, team scores, feed/rest officials, or to give consolation wrestlers their required minimum. Those 15-20 minute breaks are not the ones that I refer to here. And I understand that overall manpower plays a role too in how quickly and effectively a tournament can be driven to conclusion.

Even face offs are often significantly time consuming. I love them for regionals and state tournament (esp. with the projector!), but I'm not sure every single tournament every single weekend needs to have one, if time is truly an issue.

My point is that there are ways to drive "the usual weekend tournament" to an earlier finish time that do NOT involve limiting how often you can wrestle, or how many kids can be allowed to wrestle, which is what we're all there for in the first place.

The other elephant in the room is there aren't very many MS tournaments going on in KY on any given weekend, maybe one or two at best, so everybody wants in...until there are more venues able to host/host more often, and you can choose from 3-4 events consistently, it's hard to grow the sport and tell teams "sorry, we're full" at the same time.

I will agree with this post, as someone who runs a very big tournament every year the delayed start times suck.  Several issues create this and one I am seeing more and more is bracket changes that have to be made day of the tournament.   Teams send in rosters of 30 kids and only bring 18.  Our tournament this year had 106 bracket changes between scratches and didnt make weight and having to bump kids up a weight class.  Its become a huge issue that I just cant understand.  If you know kids are not going to wrestle the night before, why not let the host know in advance, heck if they dont make it to the bus in the morning, how bout a text to say kids x, y, and z are scratches.  Someone posted they were having a youth event and charging $10.00 for bracket changes and I totally understand why they do it, and honestly cant blame them.  

Plantmanky1 - I feel your frustration and that is why the Bearcat Brawl does not allow bumping up after weigh ins and we don't have a seeding meeting and opted for seeding based on criteria. We have cut the time to wrestle from weigh ins signifigantly and only had minimal changes due to scratches. Coach Roth stayed on the Coaches for their rosters and they were great at letting us know the changes that they had to make. We openly communicated with all of the coaches our expectations and I think we were able to get the 24 man brackets completed with minimal delays. Our goal is to have the most competetive event that KY hosts year in and year out. We seek the best competition and we want them to want to come back each year. Reducing the down time is key.

Cbender - No face offs, short breaks, and placement matches on all mats. We try to think of as many time saving items as we can. It is a long day, but hopefully, the product is well worth it. I think the only thing that might save time, that may or may not go over well, is giving the kids their medals after the medal match and not having them stand on the podium. Might take away from the tourney...who knows.

The Kentucky state youth tournament this year was an absolute delight!! The hosting region did a great job!! I personally thought it went much smoother this year compared to last year. Please allow me to weigh in on the disenfranchisement of the rural teams. I assist the youth team in Martin County (which is East of Johnson County). First off, we are in the dark a little about some of the decisions made by the clubs/schools in Central/Northern Kentucky. However, I do not think it is because we have somehow been conspired against by those schools/clubs. It is a a simple matter of geography. We know you guys have meetings and openly invite schools/clubs statewide. The fact is I am not going to drive 2 1/2 hours for a youth wrestling meeting when most of what is discussed doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as the action on the mat is concerned. I do wish information was easier to find and access on the Internet. Case in point, I still know very little about the TOC and cannot seem to find solid information anywhere. I think the men we have running things seem to be doing an excellent job promoting and teaching the sport. Do I agree with every decision? No. If I was empowered would you agree with every decision? Absolutely not. But to me when it comes down to it this is about the kids and promoting wrestling. I am tickled the state tournament is held in Lexington instead of Louisville or somewhere far west. Seems to make a lot of sense to me. I do not like the idea of moving the state tournament around because although some years it would be closer, some years it would also be farther away. Btw, I really like doing it the same weekend as the high school state tournament because I believe it adds to the atmosphere for the kids. Kudos to the powers that be who volunteer hours upon hours to promote this sport and run a successful tournament. Btw, no way could Johnson Central or Sheldon Clark host a tournament this size and run things this smoothly. Now, if we decoded to run it as a region we could probably do it at the Pikeville Expo Center. But honestly, I would rather we continue doing what we are doing and let the hosting region keep the money. I would like to know about vendor opportunities though. The people selling shirts during the Youth State Tournament said they were from River City Wrestling. Are Louisville teams in your region? How did they get the chance to set up their vending? That could be something that could be changed every year. Allowing different regions to fund raise at the tournament each year. Just a thought. Anyway, thanks for your time and hard work.

I can hear crickets!!! Lol