How can put into works seeding the state tournament. Is there any process to petition the KHSAA or propose it when planning tournaments in the future. This has to change. There were only 3-4 competitive finals matches , Primarily because the real state finals matches are wrestled in the semis or even the quarterfinals. I mean who enjoys watching major after major in the final matches ?

which 3 or 4 finals matches are you talking about?   i thought most of them were pretty good.

I will say I would rather it be seeded, but I must say it made the long days more better having exciting match ups in almost every round.

Seeding the state tournament will take too long. Heck, seeding some of the region tournaments -- at least before this year -- seemed to take forever.

And who would oversee it?

Seed returning placers is the only option

When I wrestled back in the day in South Carolina, Our tournaments were seeded.  What they did was wrestle regions, then the state was divided in half.  We had a upper state tournament and a lower state tournament.  The top 4 from each tournament wrestled at the state tournament.  The was only a 8 man bracket, and was a one day event.  They seeded by where you finished.  I know this probably is unrealistic in kentucky, but thats how it was in SC.

I'd b surprised if the tournament was ever seeded other than the way there doing it now. The 1-4s and 2-3s out of each region. I can't think of any other sport that is in Kentucky. If there is .. Then there could be a possibility.

Seed returning placers is the only option

How would that work? What happens when a returning placer who finishes fourth at region will get seeded higher than a region champ? That's not the answer at all.

You seed them 1v4 2v3 as we already do. If they finished 4th than they face a 1. Nothing changes with the current system just spread out placers.

The reason it will not be seeded is that it most likely will open up a can of worms. As soon as you seed the wrestling tournament, the boys basketball coaches at the powers such as Ballard and Scott County will demand the KHSAA seed the sweet sixteen. Then if you seed the boys, you have to seed the girls, then another sport wants their tournament seeded. What gives? Personally, I think they all should be seeded. I just don't know if the man power and logistics exist to do so.

Rumbler it isn't seeding if you separate previous state medalists.

Personally, I think it is a load of crap for arguing to seed the state tournament. If you are the best then you will have to beat the best. Period. 

The only way this will work with very little effort is if you seed the 8 champions from each region. You keep the same rule now that says the #2 from each region goes to the opposite side of that regions winner. The exact locations of the 2-4 seeds will be completed as is. (Random Draw). This will give the brackets balance at the top and almost always ensure the biggest matches happen in the finals.

The only way this will work with very little effort is if you seed the 8 champions from each region. You keep the same rule now that says the #2 from each region goes to the opposite side of that regions winner. The exact locations of the 2-4 seeds will be completed as is. (Random Draw). This will give the brackets balance at the top and almost always ensure the biggest matches happen in the finals.

Rumbler is on to something, I know of one weight class particularly that had six of the top 8 all from be side of the bracket. That means someone had an easy day!!! That's a ridiculous. One side battles it out and the other cruises into the finals. Fix this Kentucky!

The only way this will work with very little effort is if you seed the 8 champions from each region. You keep the same rule now that says the #2 from each region goes to the opposite side of that regions winner. The exact locations of the 2-4 seeds will be completed as is. (Random Draw). This will give the brackets balance at the top and almost always ensure the biggest matches happen in the finals.

Exactly rumbler. Been a proponent of this idea for years and years.

Just a general question about the above proposal that Rumbler suggested and Ranger liked . What if they move up or down weight classes ? Doesn't at least 40% move from year to year that's just a guess on the percentage ?

Just a general question about the above proposal that Rumbler suggested and Ranger liked . What if they move up or down weight classes ? Doesn't at least 40% move from year to year that's just a guess on the percentage ?

My thought is to only seed the region champs from the current year. Then let the random draw fill in the 2-4 from each region.

With track wrestling being used now for all duals and tournaments in HS Wrestling. The seeding will be done by head to head records posted on track wrestling.. I dont see a coaches meeting in the future doing this, except setting up the criteria to do it on the program.

My thought is to only seed the region champs from the current year. Then let the random draw fill in the 2-4 from each region.

Thanks that makes sense. It still leaves a lot up in the air though. I'll count them up to see how many region champions won the title but I know region 6-2 seeds won the 170 and the 182 state finals. I also believe that it wouldn't be an easy task to get all coaches to agree that their wrestler that just won their region is going to be seeded 8th lol.....I'm not a pessimist either I'm just trying to look at both sides.

Exactly Ranger. That was my thought as well.

you know one of the reasons, especiallyin some brackets is that #2 in the state loss in their region. plus some #2 in regions are better than most #1s. there is no real solution. You have to give value to regional tournys and the only fair seeding would be to just seed regional champs. but their would still have the chance of unbalanced brackets or a Gus Adams vs Trae Blackwell or Bobby Bryant vs Troxell match in the second or quarterfinals

This is true. You could still have a situation like the Adams vs Blackwell scenario. However, you would clean up a lot of the other scenario's that happened. You wouldn't have the top 4 ranked guys at 120 all on the same side of the beacket. #2 Whalen and #3 Steiner would have been on the other side. You wouldn't have had Kory Polley and Tevon Clay wrestling in the quarter finals. I could go on and on. This proposal is not gonna make the bracket absolute perfect, it's gonna make it better. I think a lot better.

I still think you should have an additional tourny between the Region and the state tourney. (Call it Sectional)

It could be done in several ways. 

1.  Keep the 32 man bracket at state:   Each Sectional will combine 2 regions (Ie Region 1 and 2).  It will be an 8 man bracket 1V4, 2V3 in first round.  Place all 8 wrestlers. (All wrestlers still qualify for the state tourney)  Then at the state tourney have 1V8, 2V7, 3V6, 4V5.  It will help seperate some of the talent.  You will only have 4 Sectional winners (2 on each side of the bracket).

2. Make the state tourney a 28 man bracket. Each sectional will place the top 8 but only the top 7 go to state. Each Sectional winner will have a bye first round. 1VBye, 2V7, 3V6, 4V5. Only 4 sectional winners.

3. Make the state tourney a 24 man bracket.  Each sectional will place to the 8th place (only top 6 go to state). Then at the state tourney have 1VBye, 2VBye, 3V6, 4V5.  Only have 4 sectional winners.

4. Make the state tourney a 16 man bracket only the top 4 in Sectionals go to state. At state 1V4, 2V3. (like it use to be before the 32 man state bracket)

I personally like option 1 the best.  This solves many problems.  It allows for a 32 man bracket, it also helps with the lopsided brackets, and will make placing in the top 4 at Sectionals very important and the perception of making it to state seem more of an accomplishment.

I still think you should have an additional tourny between the Region and the state tourney. (Call it Sectional)

 

It could be done in several ways. 

 

1.  Keep the 32 man bracket at state:   Each Sectional will combine 2 regions (Ie Region 1 and 2).  It will be an 8 man bracket 1V4, 2V3 in first round.  Place all 8 wrestlers. (All wrestlers still qualify for the state tourney)  Then at the state tourney have 1V8, 2V7, 3V6, 4V5.  It will help seperate some of the talent.  You will only have 4 Sectional winners (2 on each side of the bracket).

 

I personally like option 1 the best.  This solves many problems.  It allows for a 32 man bracket, it also helps with the lopsided brackets, and will make placing in the top 4 at Sectionals very important and the perception of making it to state seem more of an accomplishment.

GOO - I like this option the best, as well. One question - do you push the season back a week (which I would perfer) or chop a week off? Starting the season earlier really puts the Football players at a disadvantage.

I've been thinking about this again.

I have a better option.

1A:  

Regional tournament held 1st week

Placement to the top 6

Only top five move on to Sectionals (6th place would be the alternate)

Sectionals held 2nd Week.

You now have a 10 man bracket.  (The tournament can still be run in one day)

Placement to the top 10 (all place)

Only top 8 move on to state (That means 9th place would be alternate)

(Now there is a sense of accomplishment into qualifying to the state tourney.

State held 3rd Week. 

Still have a 32 man bracket.

Only 4 sectional winners. (this would reduce chances of to much talent on one side.)

You could then possibly be able to seed the sectional winners based on the previous years performance.

Any state champion gets top seed.

If multiple state champions then the one returning in the same wt.

If not returning same wt. The wrestler that was closest to the same wt last year.

If still not solved then random draw the seed between the 2 wrestslers then move to the next seed.

And state runner up gets top seed or next best seed.

etc. etc.

returning state placers only get seeded. All rest are random draw.

you only have to seed 4 wrestlers it could be done much easier.

I think grappler-of-old is onto something with his last post.  If we have to keep a 32 man bracket (which I would prefer we not), go back to the three weekend state tournament series.  District, Region, State.  The one thing I would like us not to do in his system, however, is seed the State Tournament.  You seed the District, draw in the placers for the Regional based on their performance the weekend before at the District, and then draw in the wrestlers for State based on their performance at the Regional level.  The state tournament series should be based on performance, not seeding, and the system offered  by grappler-of-old offers a more refined system than we currently have.  Will it keep all the top notch wrestlers from wrestling before the finals?  No.  But it will allow a system by which they are more spread out.  

One of the things about our 32 man bracket is that the best are almost guaranteed to be at State...and place.  When you research the states around us with larger wrestling populations; Indiana, Illinois, etc.  They often have high level kids that never make it to State.  We are concerned about some of our best kids wrestling in the Semis or Quarters when they have #1 and #2 ranked kids wreslting for the chance to qualify for State.  No, we are not those states, but we can learn something from them.  

I once heard a coach say that it is better to be lucky than good...sometimes the draw is just that.

I've been thinking about this again.

 

I have a better option.

 

1A:  

Regional tournament held 1st week

Placement to the top 6

Only top five move on to Sectionals (6th place would be the alternate)

 

Sectionals held 2nd Week.

You now have a 10 man bracket.  (The tournament can still be run in one day)

Placement to the top 10 (all place)

Only top 8 move on to state (That means 9th place would be alternate)

(Now there is a sense of accomplishment into qualifying to the state tourney.

 

State held 3rd Week. 

Still have a 32 man bracket.

Only 4 sectional winners. (this would reduce chances of to much talent on one side.)

You could then possibly be able to seed the sectional winners based on the previous years performance.

 

Any state champion gets top seed.

If multiple state champions then the one returning in the same wt.

If not returning same wt. The wrestler that was closest to the same wt last year.

If still not solved then random draw the seed between the 2 wrestslers then move to the next seed.

 

And state runner up gets top seed or next best seed.

etc. etc.

 

returning state placers only get seeded. All rest are random draw.

 

you only have to seed 4 wrestlers it could be done much easier.

Now you're talking! This, or something similar is the way to go. It works well across the river. Allow the kids to settle the "seeds" on the mat.  The brackets even out. The only time this is not the case is if a top kid gets upset at the sectional level. Even so, that "top" kid just might have been overrated to begin with.

Rumbler62 is exactly right. It will not be seeded because all other sports including Football and Basketball would want it as well. Basketball is the money maker and if that tournament is not seeded, I do not see anyway the KHSAA seeds the wrestling tournament.

I also agree with GOO but with the Regions just being realigned, I also do not see a format change coming anytime soon either. Im not trying to shoot everything down because I do think they are all great solutions but I just do not see this change coming anytime soon. I could be wrong though.

I personally would love to see Goo's format but as I mentioned the state tournament will never be seeded other than the way it is now.

Even without seeding, you go to GOO's format and you have less of a chance of the "top dogs" meeting until semi's at least.  With only four #1's vs eight it will thin the herd a little more.  Also it gives another wrestler a chance at making it to state and helps alleviate the regional strength discrepancies.  Plus you have an extra post-season tournament.

Further, you take a format like GOO's and then at state you can easily give separation to returning placers. What GOO has proposed is what works in Ohio. Everybody qualifies for one of 16 sectionals. Top four go to one of four districts, 16 man bracket seeded according to placement at sectional. Top four from each district goes to state. Again a 16 man bracket seeded according to placement at district. As GOO stated, this gives making it to state some creedence. Returning top placers are separated as best as possible. This can work for a 32 man bracket as well. Though I think 32 is way too many to qualify for state.

The 32 man bracket for the khsaa means alot more revenue . Think about that for a minute ... $25.00 a tourney pass that adds up quick . I just don't look for any changes soon. I love goos's format where he does in a way have the 32 man brackwet kind of seeded I just doubt the khsaa will change formats soon. Again I'm all for it I've just worked with Tackett and Larry Bouchers before and changes are not easily approved. The venue site could be changed especially if it means a better deal for the khsaa .  I'm sure they get the revenues from the gate and tee shirts etc and alltech gets the concessions and has to provide all the PA eqiupment  which the khsaa will ask schools to donate.  They i'm sure would also pay for table workers etc . There's so many political things going on but getting an arena that will agree to a lot of those terms is hard to find. I may be wrong but I've hosted state tournaments before in softball and I didn't have much say lol... I will say however that they did always want to put on a show for the kids.

I'm glad you like the idea.  I was trying to find a way to meet everyones gripes about seeding and such.

(As most of you know I don't necessarily like the 32 man bracket or seeding)

I honestly don't think you would need to seed if done this way. 

My next adventure will be to look at this years state tourney and see how things may have changes using my new format.  Using the outcome of the state tourney as a reference to who would beat who in the Sectionals since it would be the second week.  (Ie McIlrath defeating Courtney at the state toureny instead of the other way around like in regional).

Any suggestions at to what wt. class(es) to start with?